SPEAKER_00 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

We've got so much to talk about today. We're not even going to mess with the opener. We're just going to get right into it.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Oh, let's do it. So we'll be talking about the Crystal McCrory case today. And one of the goals that we have, so we've gotten better with our work, is supporting a drive to move cases forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

That's right. We try to identify something that's missing and we investigate that component of it. And our hopes is always that it leads to some type of answer. And sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But we found something here that definitely was worth taking a much closer look at.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah. We have a couple of things that we're going to talk about today. One is some time that we spent on the phone with the sheriff at the West Carroll Parish Sheriff's Office. And also we spoke with our great friend Jack Fox.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

That's right, Jack.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yes, uh, regarding an interview that was done that is related to Crystal's case. So stand by for that. Don't, don't stop, don't stop listening. Listen to the whole episode because that will be at the end today. So let's start talking about the sheriff. When we support a new family, one of the first things I always do is reach out to local law enforcement to invite them to come on the show. We've had some success with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I wouldn't say a lot of success.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

That's probably fair. We've had some of the detectives and investigators choose to communicate with us via email, like in Audrey's case, and others we've spoken with over the phone. And in this case, we did speak with Sheriff Matthews over the phone a couple of times and shared some emails back and forth. And we just want to share with you our conversation with him and our hopes coming out of that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Well, we're not really going to share the conversation. We're he he submitted a statement. So I think what we should do is really just kind of read that statement, and then we can kind of go into some of the some of the small details that he was able to talk to us about and really share what his feedback was.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I think that's a great idea. I'm going to read his statement now. So this is the statement directly from Sheriff Matthews. As the sheriff of this parish, it's my duty and responsibility to look at every case and scrutinize every case, as if it was the Jimmy Hoffa case of our parents. And if evidence leads in a particular direction, I'll follow that evidence wherever it may go. My heart absolutely breaks for family members or families that are grieving.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I'm really appreciate he made that statement. It's actually the first time we've been able to have a sheriff make a statement on the podcast now. We still would love for them to come on, but I also understand some of the reasons that they can't. I want to get into some of the things we talked about because we did prepare a series of questions, and there were a lot of things that he would have loved to talk to us about, but he couldn't. And the two things he did discuss with us was the nature of the jam of the gun and then also the GSR. Those are two things that we've talked about. And so if you look at the report, and it talks about a stovepipe jam. So anyone who's familiar with firearms, you know that a stovepipe jam means that the casing is actually jammed into the slide of the gun and looks like a stovepipe. But in our situation, it doesn't get found until several days later. And so obviously not a stovepipe jam. When we talked to the sheriff about that, he indicated this is an this is a problem with reporting, how it was written. He didn't really commit to why it was written that way, but he did say that it's it's not as important of a detail as we think. He was giving it more of a clerical error. At least that's the vibe I got. I'm not sure if you got the same vibe.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

I remember him talking about interpretation. Whether it was a stovepipe jam or not was maybe up to the interpretation of the person who saw the gun and their re the interpretation of their report.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Understood. So I I'm not sure I like that answer. I I never really kind of got past it, but we decided to let that one go because at this point, you know, we started to build a really good relationship with him. And I understand that and and we've seen it, I guess. I want to make sure I just acknowledge this. Reports are not perfect. And the people, it's down to the people who write them. It's even more so down to the people who read them, interpret them. So I think that's kind of what he was getting at with that. Regarding the second thing, it was a very interesting part of the conversation because he talked about the GSR. There's been a lot of conversation about why GSR was not done, and people think that this is the coup de gras that could have found out and known exactly what happened. He indicated that his sheriff's office no longer performs GSR in the hands. So the question is, why? He said it was inconclusive evidence. And at initially, I didn't believe that because I've always believed that this was good, but then it really pushed me to start researching that. And what I found is he's actually correct. There's a lot of scenarios where different law enforcement agencies, including the FDLE within our own, you know, our own community, they do not do GSR on the hands anymore. It's even something that's questionable at the FBI level. And the reason is because there's so many other variables that could create a similar problem that it's not a very good evidentiary path to go on. With that being said, the size of the room became a question for me. And so we confirmed that the size of this bedroom was actually quite small. And from what we could tell, that even if a firearm had gone off in the room held by anyone, it is very likely that GSR would have been on Crystal. Now, one question that I did ask later, not to the sheriff, just to myself when I was thinking about him going, well, okay, I can certainly see why GSR testing on Crystal would be inconclusive based on those variables. But there was no GSR testing done on Tony. Not that we've been able to find. And that would have been an interesting piece of information to exonerate him, because if you do the GSR testing on him and it's negative, it's not a hundred percent conclusive. That's something else the science really kind of told us when I did that research, because there's some false positive can happen, but a negative result would have been pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

And this is why it is so important for us to be able to have conversations with people who are close to the case, whether they be family members or investigators, because I personally have been really stuck on the why wasn't that gunshot residue done on Crystal? And now we kind of have an idea. And then you and I were talking about it, and then you just said, well, hold up. Maybe we're asking about the wrong person. Why didn't they do gunshot residue on Tony, or why wasn't it considered? And that literally blew my mind, even though we've been talking about this for quite a while. We've talked to Jana, we've talked to so many people. These are the pieces of the puzzle that come out when we're having these conversations and sharing them with our listeners. That's right. Something else that I thought was very, very interesting was his firmness on standing by the decision that was made at the time. He was very, very clear that he believes that suicide is the right conclusion, didn't really waver on that at all, and was very firm.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

And the other thing that stood out to me is he was very open. He's well, he's so confident in the result that he's he's very open for any other investigative unit to come and take a look at what he has. He said openly that if there's ever a piece of evidence that points us into a different direction, it will absolutely be investigated. It will absolutely be taken to its conclusion to understand how it impacts the overall findings where they stand today. So we did tell him that we had a number of different agencies that we typically partner with, and that he would be, and we we let him know that, and he said he'd be willing to let them have access to whatever they needed in order to, you know, draw their own conclusions and and confirm. Now, it was one of those things that he he also said that maybe this case wasn't worth our time. And that that statement really did kind of bother me a little bit, but I definitely appreciate his point of view. He was he was indicating that he's you know that that's that's one of the reasons we're saying he's so confident in it, because he was like, Well, you know, there's a lot of cases that have a lot of other open things, and this one is pretty well concluded from his perspective based on the evidence that's been collected. And it's one of those things, even after talking to the private investigator, there's a lot of questions around evidence that's available to ever disprove the initial findings and that we may never know. And so I take a lot of those things in in into account when I when I say this next thing I'm gonna say is I don't disagree with it entirely. There's definitely evidence pointing to suicide that can't that can't really be debated. But I also have the belief that if the case is solid, it should stand up to scrutiny. And that's exactly what this is about.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Another thing that happened in relation to Crystal's story is a text message that I got from our friend Jack Fox a couple of weeks ago. And those of you who have listened, you know that Jack does statement analysis and he lives in England. And I got a text message, I don't know what time he sent it. It was when I woke up in the morning and he said, Hey, I noticed that you guys are supporting Crystal's family and that he and Jana had had some conversation about him potentially doing some analysis on a witness statement. And I said, We would love to talk to you about that. And so what we have is a seven-minute statement that was given by Tony, Crystal's husband. This is available on YouTube. This is public knowledge. Um, it was originally posted on YouTube on November 29th, 2024.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah, and we'll we'll include the link to the statement um within the description of this episode, but you know, we're also gonna play it here. We did it, we cleaned it up, we took out some of the some of the information that wasn't relevant, but when soon as the interview starts, we play it nonstop.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

After you listen to the seven-minute interview, we'll launch into our conversation that we had with Jack.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Tony, would you state your name and date of birth for the recording, please? Tony Joe Jones. 428-1978. Tony, we responded to your residence this afternoon, the Wisconsin Sheriff's Office investigators and uh deputies in reference to uh your wife, Miss uh Crystal and a self-inflicted gunshot woman. Could you walk me through your and her activities of today starting from when you left your residence this morning?

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Um I got I left the residence shortly after eight o'clock. Um I went to Bastra to um uh customer's house, Darren Billings and Bastra um worked on stuff for him, and I left there and it was shortly before ten o'clock or so. Um I called Crystal at 1006 and she answered the phone and and I was like, what are you doing? And I stayed on the phone with her for uh 15 or 20 minutes, I say. And um I had another job to do in um Forest High School. So I went into town, um, I put a check in the bank. Um I turned around and then I went to eat at Bakery Barn. Um I left there and went to Forest High School, and I was there till just shy of three o'clock. Um I got my daughter from checked her out from school since I was already there at like 2 45 and I drove to we and I sent her a message saying, Hey, I got little girl. Um, and she didn't respond what she normally does. Um then I drove into town and um I uh got we me and my daughter got something to eat at Sonic. And uh she and I tried to call her again and she didn't answer. So then I contacted the East Carroll Medical Clinic because she had an appointment at 2 30. And I said, and I've and this was like 3 45 or something. And I said, I asked him, I said, my wife was supposed to have an appointment. Is she still there? And um I gave him her name and she's like, well, she never checked in. And uh, so then I tried to call a couple more times and and I was real worried at that point. So I called Deputy Harris, he was my neighbor, and he said he was almost home that he would go check. So I got he got there and he said that uh no one was answering the door. Her vehicle was there. I was like, well, please go inside, the door is unlocked. Um he went inside, was calling it calling her name. I said, the bedroom's in the very back of the house. Um and uh her name's Crystal. And so he's calling Crystal, Crystal, Crystal. And were you still on the phone? I was still on the phone with him. And he um he opened the door and he said, Crystal, crystal. And then he um at that point he said, Tony, I'm sorry to tell you that um she is deceased. And so then I rushed home as Where where were you at Tony? I was at uh the bowling alley or at by our karate school. Okay. I was at the karate school and we were cause we had class tonight and so I was there waiting for her to get there and and she wasn't there by four o'clock. Um then that's when I really got that's when I really started panicking. Um, because she had been dealing with some depression and like I said, that's what she was going to the doctor for was That was her that was her appointment to to go for the depression. She was on a bilify and they um the Amy Hale took her off of it, which is her doctor. And so now and she was trying to come off. She said, I don't feel well, and I told her to call this morning. She set the appointment this morning.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

And so and so she she made the appointment for 2 30 this morning. Oh uh when you talked to her on the phone uh at 10 uh how did she sound?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Um it took her a couple rings to to actually get it, and I was like, um, she's like, hey, and I was like, hey, I said, what you doing? She's like, I was in the living room. And I was like, okay. I was like, sounded like you were asleep. And she's like, No, I wasn't asleep, I was just in the living room. So, and um I talked to her. We sat on the phone for a few minutes and she really wasn't saying anything. Um, because a lot I talked to her while I drive a lot, and um, and I talked to her while she's driving. And um I was like, Alright, well, I said, I don't get off here, you can get you can get back to what you were doing. And she's like, okay, and I was like, I love you, and she said, I love you, and that's that's the last time I talked to her.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Oh what handguns were available to her in in the bedroom.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

I don't know if in her purse there was a nine millimeter. I don't know if that's the one she used, but there was also a 45 on the nightstand. Um and that's the the gun case was locked because I lost the key. So um it was either the nine millimeter or the forty-five was available.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

It was uh I think uh ECS. Yeah, uh yeah, as long as that's that was the one she had. So that that gun belonged to her.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yes. Well, it was in my name, but that was the one she carried for protection.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

And I talked to uh Deputy Crimes Colt while we were we were working the scene and and he told me that uh he had talked to you there at the karate school this afternoon. Did you see him at the high school? Yeah, I was at the high school when I talked to him. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

What what do you do for a living? Uh I'm a maintenance handyman. AC repair, pretty much anything. I do a lot of work. I do all that all the s the air conditioning refrigeration for the school system. Was was Crystal right or left-handed? She was right-handed.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

I believe that is all the information that I'm gonna require from you, Tony. Is there anything that you would like to add or take away from the state that you've given me this evening? I I don't believe so. She battled depression all the time.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Welcome to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And we're pleased to welcome back Jack Fox. Many of our listeners know Jack from his YouTube channel, Never a Truer Word, where he examines criminal investigations through the lens of statement analysis. He has joined us on previous episodes to help our listeners better understand how a language can provide insight during an investigation. In today's episode, we will review a seven-minute recorded interview related to the Crystal McCrory case. As always, statement analysis is one investigative tool designed to identify areas that may warrant additional questions. It is not intended to determine guilt or innocence and should always be considered alongside the totality of the evidence. Jack, thank you for being here and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

Hey guys, thank you very much for having me back. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

We're so glad when you reached out about this. I, you know, you're across the pond, and so you sent me a text, and I woke up, I don't know how long it had been. I was like, I told Michael, I said, Jack just sent us a text. So thank you for reaching out. Um, and we really look forward to digging into this. So I do want to give a brief summary of Crystal's death. Um, as we know that people may just want to listen to this episode, and we want to make sure that they understand what we're discussing. So on February 9th, 2023, Crystal McCrory was found deceased in her Oak Grove, Louisiana home after a welfare check was requested when she failed to answer calls from her husband and she missed a scheduled doctor's appointment. Crystal died from a single gunshot wound to the head, and her death was ruled a suicide within approximately 90 minutes of first responders arriving at the scene. So we have a seven-minute interview um between Detective Irby and um Tony, who was Crystal's husband at the time that she died. And that's what we're going to be um looking into, having a conversation with you and your analysis on that interview. So we're just gonna pass it on over to you and let's get started.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

Great. Uh and like you said, you know, um, we can't prove anything with statement analysis, but boy, does this provide me with a lot of questions in terms of why she said certain things, what he's missed out in this um story, makes me go, why were there no follow-up questions in that seven-minute um interview? Like you say, the very first thing that they got me, and it's so rare that I look at the words of the interviewer, but um the Urbe, the the police, the chief deputy, um, uh, you know, he says the time, and it's like three, three and a bit hours after um the the welfare check was requested, and he says, I'll be taking a statement from Tony in reference to a self-inflicted gunshot wound of his wife. And I'm like, uh, how do you know at this point? Like, what is the rush here to do this? Um, and so I'm like, was there ever any investigation, a proper investigation here? And that's not to put guilt or anything on on anyone else. That is, this seems to have been open and shot before this statement was was even given.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, we understand from talking to Crystal's sister, Jana, that that is a big point of contention. And it seems to be that the determination that she died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound was made within 90 minutes of first responders.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

It was 90 minutes. And, you know, when you start looking at the facts of the case, I mean, are there such I I said this when we did the initial um review, are there situations where you could possibly determine that in 90 minutes? Answer is yes. But in this situation, there seems to be enough physical evidence and circumstantial evidence that made me kind of take a pause to where I would want to look into that before I've I'm willing to use a statement like that.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Yeah. And again, this before we get to any of Tony's words, who's really the person I'm I'm interested in hearing from, uh, the very first question that he's asked is could you walk me through your and her activities of today, starting from when you left the residence this morning? And therefore, he is asking a question that knocks out anything that may be relevant that Crystal said, felt, or did when uh Tony was there to observe it in the morning. It's it's very much Tony, can you account for your whereabouts rather than let's deal with this in the whole and you know what was Crystal like in the Morning because obviously self-inflicted gunshot wound, state of mind, actions, anything that person said could be really relevant to um, you know, looking at exactly what happened. But that does not seem to be a question um that enters um Urby's uh mind at all. He just seems to want to get this kind of cleared up as soon as possible.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

This is why we like you so much, Jack, because I've listened to this recording a couple of times, and that question, I have lots of other questions, but that question never even occurred to me.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Um but let's go on to let's go on to Tony. Um and um the the very first thing he says is Um, I got I left the residence shortly after eight o'clock, and he this I got, and then stopping. So he was going to say, I got, and we don't know what. It could be I got up at 6 a.m. I got my breakfast and left the house. We don't know, but he thinks better of saying whatever it was that he was going to say with the I got and says, I left the residence shortly after eight o'clock. Now that is not me saying there's any sign of anything suspicious there. What I am saying is he's choosing his words carefully, just like I would do if I was giving a statement to the police. But you know, it lets us see the mode that Tony's in when he's talking here. He's he's choosing what he says carefully and making sure he says what it is that he wants to say. So he says, I left the residence shortly after eight o'clock. Uh, I went to Bastrop um to I've probably pronounced that place name really awful, awfully, to um a customer's house, Darren Billings in Bastrop. Um worked on stuff for him, and I left there and it was shortly before 10 o'clock or so. So we can see leaving at 8 o'clock, uh, doing some work. I mean, he's not very specific about the work, doing some stuff for him. Left there shortly before 10 o'clock or so. He's really pinning himself down to times here um as to when he left the house and when he left uh Darren Billings. And then he says, uh, um, I called Crystal at 10.06 and she answered the phone. And this is where it starts to get interesting to me. It's very exact. I called Crystal at 10.06. Now I understand you, you know, uh 2023, you can get your call times from your phone. So maybe he does know exactly when it is, and he's stating a very exact time, 10.06. I called Crystal and she answered the phone. Now that interested me because when you talk about calling someone, do you say and they answered the phone? You know, um, Alisa, when you say I called Michael and he answered the phone and we spoke, that's not what we normally say, is it? We know, um, I, you know, I called Jennifer and we spoke about the soccer. Um, you know, that's that is how we normally speak. So for some reason, he wants to let us know that she answered the phone at that point. Um, he then says, and and I was like, What are you doing? And I stayed on the phone with her for uh 15 or 20 minutes. Now we notice then he then goes on to talk about uh I had another job to do in forest school, so I went to town. He doesn't speak about Crystal in that phone call at all. She answered the phone. I was like, What are you doing? I stayed on the phone with her for uh 15 or 20 minutes. We don't hear anything. There's no crystal in that phone call at all, which interested me. Um and also just bear in mind how long he said he was on the phone there for 15 or 20 minutes, because that will become important later on. And then he talks about what he did. He doesn't talk about hanging up uh the phone at all. He just says he was on the phone with her for 15-20 minutes. Uh and um I had another job to do in um Forest High School. So I went into town, I put a check in the bank, um, I turned around and then I went to eat at Bakery Barn. Now, I want to know about this putting the check in the bank. Great. And then I turned around. That suggests to me he was heading somewhere and then didn't head there. You know, if you put a check in the bank, you go to the bank, you put the check in and you come out the bank and go somewhere else. But I turned around, which seemed like a very interesting choice of words in there. And also he stopped, if you notice, putting times on what he does. So he called Crystal at 10.06, and that's the last time stamp that we hear from him in this story until 3 p.m. So he's very good at starting off with accounting for leaving the house at eight, leaving uh Darren Billings at 10 or so, calling Crystal at 10.06, and then putting the check in the bank, turning around, and I went to eat at Bakery Barn. He puts no time stamps on those.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

I'm hearing some, I'm trying to furiously write some notes. It seems like there's sort of a pattern of responding in a certain way and then responding in a completely different way. For example, there's the specificity of the time that he made the call and even like the minutes, but then there's no specific specificity around what she said during the phone call and what he did like. He just used the word stuff, right? There was I did some stuff. And then there's also this what you just noted, some very specific things about the timestamps, and then the timestamps just stop. So it's almost like there are times when completely different things on what you would think are happening, timestamps versus not, specificity versus more global.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Yes. Um, also, just in that last extract I read, he said, um, I had another job to do in um Forest High School. But he, as you'll notice there, he mentioned that, but didn't actually say he got to Forest High School. He's gonna tell us in a minute he got to Forest High School. Um, but for some reason, this was uh just maybe slightly out of time as to maybe why he was traveling in a certain direction or so on. You know, like I had another job to do in Forest High School, but actually what I did do was go to the bank. I turned around and then went to eat at Bakery Barn.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

And this makes me think that I just wrote down like the path of travel. It would be good, I think, to sort of try to figure out where all these places are and see if they make sense. Because when I have a bunch of errands to do, the first thing I do is go, okay, do I want to go far out and come back? Or do I want to go close and go out, or do I want to follow a circle? And I'm just interested if that would be something we could find out, if there was some sort of pattern of travel according to what he is saying, or if it was just sort of random like zigzags all around the town.

SPEAKER_04 28:10

If you know me, I don't like to know too much about the cases. I love to look at the words and not be drawn into, you know, if I started doing what you said there, I would I might be drawn into going, oh well, I would I would go to the bakery barn first and then the bank. So why has he done that? Um I but I cannot tell you, Alisa, just how much I wanted to do what you do and go, right, what was his what was his journey there?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Uh-huh. Does that make sense? Okay. It's a good thing for us to. That's we love a lot of things about you. And one of them is it makes us think about something that perhaps we haven't thought about. And those are some ideas that I have just from this brief part that we've already discussed.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Cool. Well, here's something else to think about because um, yeah, he went to eat at Bakery Barn and um, I left there and went to Forest High School. And I was there until just shy of three o'clock. He doesn't give a time of arrival at Forest High School. Again, that's something that's missing in the I wouldn't say it's the there's a pattern of giving us some times and not giving us other times. Um, he says he arrived at Forest High School, no time. I was there till just shy of three o'clock. So we've really got this sort of 10.06, maybe add 15 or 20 minutes for the phone call through to three o'clock, where he's very, very vague. That's a long time, very vague about what times he was at certain places there. Um, he says, I got my daughter from, and then pauses, and this says, checked her out of school since I was already there at like 245. And then he says, and I drove to, and then he stops. He says, We, and I sent her a message saying, Hey, I got little girl. And that, when I'm talking about choosing his words carefully, he says, I got her at 245 and I drove to. Uh, where was he going to drive to? Why did he stop and then say, I sent her a message saying I got little girl? That is again, that says Jesse me choosing his words carefully. And look, it might well be because the things that I'm going to raise here are questions um and data points. And I when I get to the end of a statement, I kind of look at the data points and say, where are they leading me? What are they telling me? Um, and you know, here certainly picking his words carefully, and he certainly wants to stop where he was driving to to mention that he texted Crystal. I sent her a message, hey, I got a little girl, um, and she didn't respond, which she normally does. Uh, then I drove into town, so this seems to be where he was driving to. Um, I got me and my daughter something to eat at Sonic. So, number one, he he likes to eat quite a lot, this guy, because he was at Bakery Barn and then Sonic um just a few hours later. Um, but yeah, we are now sort of back in back in a timeline with him. You know, he's uh and place he's 2.45. Um, he he picked his daughter up from school, sent this text, went to eat at Sonic. Uh the next thing he says is, and uh she and I tried to call her again. Um so we again we have something that he started saying but stopped saying, thought better of saying, and thought there was something better to say, which is, and I tried to call her again. And actually, if you notice, the the other one was, and I drove and I sent her a text message, and uh she, I tried to call her again. It's as if he's telling a story and then realizes he needs to say he tried to contact Crystal. That's very important for him to say, I tried to contact Chris, contact Crystal, which I think is why he pulls out of carrying on with the narrative of the story to pause and go, Oh, I tried to send her a text at this point, I tried to call her at this point. Uh she didn't answer. So then I contacted East Carroll Medical Clinic because she had an appointment at 2.30. And I said, and this was like 3.45 or something, and I said, I asked him, I said, My wife was supposed to have an appointment. Is she still there? And um, I gave him her name, and she's like, Well, she never checked in, which is a really clunky way of saying, and I knew she had a doctor's appointment at 2.30, so I phoned to see if she was there or had been. It's very, very, very clunky. And um, he really wants to make sure that we know everything that he said and everything that was said to him here.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Almost like over-explaining?

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Yes, yes, and it's over-explaining the um how uh concerned he was, you know, how much work he did to try and find her, which I find an interesting um point. The other thing around the doctor's appointment is uh so um he says uh she was supposed to have an appointment there. She wasn't well, she'd made this doctor's appointment. However, he doesn't mention in the phone call he asked how she was, which when he's said she's not well, she's going for a doctor's appointment. They they never spoke about that in the phone call.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

It's uh feels like a repeat to me of um not speaking about her perspective, right? It happened during the phone call, the 10 to 15 minute phone call, and it's happening here again. And it's all seems to be predicated under the initial question that the detective asked, which is I think why you highlighted that question.

SPEAKER_04 33:04

Yeah. So he's established that she didn't make the doctor's appointment. Um, and uh so then I tried to call her a couple of more a couple more times, and I was real worried at that point. Um, what I found interesting there was that phrase, real worried at that point. And there's no sort of build-up to that. That's the first kind of emotion that he describes in in any of this story. Um, and it's real worried, and there's no sense in any of his narrative about getting uh, you know, like I was a bit worried, um, or it was unusual, but you know, I wasn't worried yet. The the worry just seems to come like that in this telling of the story, and it's and it's real worried. So I called Deputy Harris, who's my neighbor, and what is to remember, Deputy Harris is his neighbor, and he said he was almost home, so he would go check. Then he says, so I got, he got there. So he started to say, so I got something, and changes that to he got there. Maybe that's just a misspeak. Maybe he was gonna say I got there, which was wrong, and you know, he got there. And he said, uh, no one was answering the door, her vehicle was there. So Deputy Harris, the neighbor, who he can call, he knows that the phone number of Deputy Harris, that's going to become important later on. Um, and then he says that Deputy Harris says no one was answering the door. Not Crystal wasn't answering the door, but that no one was answering the door and her vehicle was there. And then if there's one thing that worries me in the most, it's the next line in this uh statement. I was like, well, please go inside. The door is unlocked. How did he know the door was unlocked? Unless they never ever lock their door. You think about what should be going through his mind at that point, is that uh, and he explains later, he's he's waiting on Crystal coming to uh karate class. So, you know, okay, her car is there, but maybe she went another way. Um, you know, maybe uh Crystal's in the house and has locked the door. You know, the how does he know? How does he know the door is unlocked? Maybe she's you know had to go out to a store or something and take a walk. How did he know the door was unlocked? How did he know to say to uh Deputy Harris, the door is unlocked? That that concerned me, that phrase when I heard that there.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Well, and technically she's supposed to be at the doctor's at this point. Seems I don't know what you do, but when we leave our house, well, the door's always locked at our house. It's it's never unlocked. And certainly if we leave, it's locked.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Well, it comes down to mean I I grew up in kind of a rural area as well. And so is it common to leave your doors unlocked then? The answer is yes, but you ask a good question. We typically lock the doors when no one's going to be home. Yeah. So to me, I read this as he knew she was home. That's why the door would be unlocked. And I I found that I found the entire exchange regarding that, while it doesn't prove anything, just seemed like he he knew an awful lot about where she was and what the conditions would be for someone who did not know where his wife was.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

Yeah, exactly that. And if he'd said the door should be unlocked, um, that would cover off in a much more natural language if the door is normally unlocked. You know, if the door is normally just something you can walk through, um, the door should be unlocked or might be unlocked, but it's very factual. The door is unlocked. And I want to know how he knew that to state it there um for a fact in his story. And then there's more, like you alluded to there, Michael. Um, he went inside, was calling her, calling her name. I said the bedrooms in the very back of the house. Why did he tell him that? I could understand again if there was a little bit more explanation. He said she's not in the living room, she's not in the kitchen, is there anywhere else I should try? The bedrooms in the back of the house, look there. Maybe she's sleeping. But he none of that is said there. He the deputy Harris went in and I said the bedroom, or or I said, Tony said, the bedrooms in the very back of the house in this telling of the story. That to me, again, the door is unlocked. The bed look in the bedroom at the very back of the house. And also, he says, and um, her name's Crystal. Now, this is a neighbor, a neighbor who he has the phone number of, and he has to tell this guy his wife's name. That interested me.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

And I believe they all worked together. So I I do think that's very interesting that he would not that the assumption would be that he didn't know her name. That seems really weird to me. So thank you for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

Uh he carries on with more of the really this is just how does he know these things? I was still on the oh, sorry, the the um investigator, the the police guy says, Were you still on the phone? And Tony confirms, I was still on the phone with him. And um, he opened the door and he said, Crystal, crystal. How does he know he opened the door? Unless it's a really creaky door, or you know, he said to him, I'm going to open the door now. How does he know he opened the door at that point in that uh the journey through the house? There's a lot in this, this little part of it that just makes me say, How does he know this? How does he know to do this? The next thing he says is, and then he at that point he said, Tony, I'm sorry to tell you, um, she is deceased. And so then I rushed home. And again, this feels like a story with missing parts. You know, there's no, oh my god, she's in here. Um, and then no, she's no longer with us, or or anything like that, or you know, you need to get here fast, she's in a bad way, or anything. It's a very Tony. I'm sorry to have to tell you, um, she is deceased. It doesn't seem in this telling of the story that Deputy Harris made any attempts to confirm um that Crystal was um deceased. Uh just he seems to open a door and decide right there and then that Crystal is deceased, which is feels very much like the the tone of the entire investigation.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Mm-hmm. Quick judgments.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

Yeah. The police guy then says to him, Where were you at that time? And again, and and this just why are there so many questions come up from this? Where were you at that time? Tony says, I was at the the bowling alley or at our karate school. And I don't know about you, but if something so seismic had happened in my life, I would remember where I was when I was told. You know, down to the actual position I was sitting in at the time, unless he was so traumatized, he cannot remember where he was. But at that time, he was at the bowling alley or at our karate school, which is I I just do not know why he did not know where he was there.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

That's the part that really stood out. The bowling alley and then the hesitation and then the changing. And you bring up a good point. You know, fortunately, I haven't been through very many traumatic things in my life, but those things that I have been through, I know where I was. I don't, there's no hesitation um on where I was. I think that would we would be what you would expect.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

I can tell you uh, you know, where I was when um I'm lucky enough to both my parents are alive, but my grandparents have died, and I could tell you where I was on every occasion I was told that they'd passed away from the age of I think it was four or five when my grand uh my first granddad died. I can remember exactly, exactly to the paving slab where I was when I was told. And um that and look, not everyone has to be like me, and trauma affects people in different ways, but I find it very, very strange.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

I agree. That's the part that really stuck out to me.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

Then he confirms I was at the karate school, and we were because we had class tonight, and so I was there waiting for her to get there. Now, I'm very big on when someone answers a question and then gives more information. So he's asked, Where were you at that time? And despite the fact he doesn't know, he does confirm he's at the karate school, but he goes on to say more. Um and when someone says something that that's beyond answering the question, it's always very, I believe, important that they get this out there, that they say this. It's a priority for them to have this out there. And he this extra thing that he says, and and she wasn't there by four o'clock. Then that's when I really got that's when I really started panicking because she had been dealing with some depression, and like I said, that's what she was going to the doctor for. So this feels like he's wanting to get across the his panic. Number one, and he wasn't just panicking, but he really started panicking, and he wants to make sure that we knew he was panicking in this telling. Um, also, he's moved into past tense um already to describe Crystal. She had been dealing with some depression. Um, and like I said, that's what she was going to the doctor for. You might have noticed that he didn't say that before when he mentioned the doctor's appointment. He didn't mention depression before, it was just the doctor's appointment. But he's flagged it up and said, and like I said, that's what she was going to the doctor for. Now, when people use like I said, or as I've said before, or as I've always said, they want to appear consistent, like their story hasn't changed, you know, like and often, and this might not be the case here, liars like to point out how consistent they are, how they've said things before, because they believe being consistent will make them more believable. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

This is great.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

He carries on talking about uh the depression. That was her appointment to go for the depression. She was on Ablify, so they um Amy Hale took her off of it, which is her doctor. And I thought that was the most remarkable way I've ever heard of anyone refer to their partner's doctor before by their full name. It's like very familiar. Um, you know, Amy Hale took her off of it, not Dr. Hale, or even just her doctor. I'm thinking of my partner's doctor. I wouldn't even know their surname, never mind their full name. Um, but he seems to be very familiar with the the doctor and the full name. I wonder maybe this um is is just me speculating, but was he very involved in the treatment that you know he knew the doctor very well, or is there something else going on there because he mentions uh that the you know she's come off medication? Is that just what he wants to get across and get across who it was that took her off the medication rather than Crystal deciding to come off the medication together? He carries on. And so now, and she was trying to come to, she said, I don't feel well. Now I don't know what she was trying to sorry, she was trying to come out, is what he says. Was trying to come out, trying to come off it, maybe he was trying to say, but he thinks better of saying that. She said, I don't feel well. And I told her to call this morning, she set an appointment this morning, and so and which is sort of dribbling away there at the end, you know. She set an appointment this morning and so and and this is the end of that extra bit that I'm talking about, which is like he's got everything out that he wanted to get out that was important for him to get out, even though it wasn't an answer to the question. And then when we've done that, we sort of dribble away at the end with like, and so and uh that's I feel what's happened there. Uh the police guy says she may. The appointment for 2 30 this morning. Yeah, confirms Tony. Um, okay, this is the next part that's very interesting because it's always interesting. Um, he has asked when you talk to her on the phone at 10, how did she sound? Okay, now the question is, how did she sound? So we would expect an answer about how she sounded. Upbeat, downbeat, okay, no different from from from normal. And we don't get that answer. He says, um, it took her a couple of rings to to actually get it, which is well, it's not how she sounded, is it? It's a um a comment on how many rings that the phone took to to get it. And a couple of rings, is that remarkable? You know, is that something you would remember? I understand if someone it took them a long time to answer the phone, but that's not what he says. It's a couple of rings to actually get it. How did she sound? We don't know. Because he then goes on, again, just like the first telling of the call, to say what he said rather than what she said. I was um like, she's like, um, I was like, I said, what you doing? She's like, I was in the living room, which is not an answer to what you're doing. It's that's an answer to where you were. And I was like, okay, I was like, sounded like you were asleep. She's like, no, I wasn't asleep. So Crystal actually turns up in this telling of the phone call, but it's very different from the first telling of the phone call. Um, he carries on saying what Crystal was saying. I was just in the living room. So, and um, I talked to her. We sat on the phone for a few minutes, and she really wasn't saying anything, which is very different to the first um pass on this conversation that he took when he described it earlier. And he moves away from the phone call at that point and just starts talking about life in general and saying, because a lot I talked to her while I drive a lot, and um, I talked to her while she's driving. Notice this is in the past tense. Not I talk to her when I drive a lot, not she talks to me when she's driving. He's already moved into the past tense on their relationship. I talked to her while I drive a lot, and um, I talked to her while she's driving, and um, I was like, all right, well, I said, I'm gonna get off here. You can get back to what you're doing. And she's like, okay. And I was like, I love you. And she said, I love you. And that's the last time I could talk to her, which is very different from the first telling of that phone call that lasted 15 to 20 minutes. That's not 15 to 20 minutes worth um of conversation that he's relating there. And also, he doesn't answer the question, how did she sound? We I don't come away really knowing how she sounded um there whatsoever. And he talks about a little bit like it feels like a little bit like a resume statement about what a nice guy he is. You know, we I talked to her when I drive a lot, and I talk to her while she's driving. You know, I just I'm so great. I love having all these conversations with her, and I was dead nice and went, get back to what you were doing. I love you. It all feels a little bit like a resume um conversation rather than that this 10 or 15 to 20 minute phone call that he claimed that he made earlier there. They both can't be true. Something isn't quite right in those tellings of the phone calls that were there.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

And it feels like the the prompt that was given regarding the phone call is different in the beginning, the first, and then at the end. And it almost seems like how did she sound is a probe for state of mind. Yes. To me. It feels like a leading question to what was her state of mind, which, as you mentioned, he does not answer at all.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

Yeah, there's so many valid answers to how did she sound. Like I said, you know, normal, or she didn't sound that great. Um, or she sounded quite upbeat and happy, or or even he's alluding there to the fact that um, you know, she might have sounded tired because he mentions, you know, I thought you might have been asleep. But he doesn't say she sounded tired, or she sounded like she'd just woken up, or even, you know, dazed or or anything like that. He doesn't actually say that. It's just an impression we come away when we hear from him. However, that's not the words that he used, so we can't assume that's that's what he's saying.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

It's vague. It doesn't, it runs around the question and gives a vague, more global response.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

The last part that um that interests me is he's asked about the the guns in the house. And the police guy says, What handguns were available to her in the bedroom at the time? And Tony's answer is, I don't know if in her purse there was a nine millimeter. I don't know if that's the one she used, but there was also a 45 on the nightstand. And again, how does he know it was in her purse? He says, in her purse there was a nine millimeter. Not she carries her nine millimeter in her purse. He's much more factual again, just like you know, with the the door being unlocked, he's just a little bit more factual than I would think about it. Like um, if you always have a drinking bottle in your car, there should be a drinking bottle in the glove compartment, or you'll there should be my boots in the boot. Not, you know, there was a nine millimeter. There was a nine millimeter again, past tense, not in her purse, there is a nine millimeter. Um, so it's as if he the nine does he know the nine millimeter was not in her purse anymore. So you'd refer to it in the past tense, or does that past tense come from? That was where he saw it at the last time. But it's it's a really interesting phrase to me there. Um, um, and that's the gun case is locked because I lost the key. So um it was either the nine millimeter or the 45 was available. Um, and he guesses on the right gun because um the police guy says I think it was an ECS, yeah. Um but which is a 50-50 guess, don't get me wrong. I'm not I'm not saying this is some sort of you know amazing uh you know coincidence that he's done. Um, but he talks about which one is used by he isn't asked that. He was asked which handguns are available to her in the bedroom at the time, and he could have said in her purse there would have been a nine millimeter and there was a 45 on the nightstand. That's the answer to the question. But then he goes into explaining about the gun case being locked and then saying it was either one of these guns that was used, and he wasn't asked any of that. He's very, very definitive again about what happened there with that. So that that also interested me. And that the rest of um the um the rest of the conversation is about him confirming what he does for a living, um, and also um the the the police uh guy saying um you've given me all the information I'm going to require from you, Tony, which I would have had a lot more questions. I would have had a lot, lot, lot more questions, and maybe, just maybe, that could have helped clear some things up um there, but there were certainly a lot more questions to be asked on the back of that statement. Um, I've just you know, in summary, the timeline is very woolly to me between 10 o'clock and 3 p.m. And also for me, there's he he um wants to say that he was with his daughter from school's out until the police came to see him at the karate um class. But I I've got a feeling that there's some signs in there for me that he wasn't there all the time present with his daughter. Hence the was I in the bowling alley, was I in the karate club? I I can't quite remember.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

All right. Well, I I have a couple of things. Michael, do you want to kick us off or get started? So, first of all, thank you for going through all of that. And there's a couple of themes as I've sort of interjected as you've gone along. I want to start with um, not specific to this particular piece of evidence, but just in general, when someone is wavering between um sort of a more factual approach and a more vague approach, what does that tell you?

SPEAKER_04 51:37

It tells me that someone is being vague for a reason. And there are when we talk, there's there's ultimately two modes when we talk. Um, so before we started recording, we were catching up on life, um, and we were telling each other what we've been up to and so on, and we were just chatting away. Um, and that's a sort of autopilot mode where your brain is picking the words to use, because it's your brain's just using your experience or your thoughts or your feelings to turn that into words that are sent to your mouth and you say them without very much thought. That's autopilot. So if you're vague in that mode, it's because you are vague. It's because you know that you don't really remember what happened or or you know what it was you were going to say or so on. If you're in deliberate picking of your words mode, like um you would be if you were giving uh speech or if you were giving um uh like me now, you know, I'm trying to explain some complex concepts and hoping to boil it down into easily understood words. I'm picking my words very carefully and deliberately so that people can understand them. I'm thinking about them. So I'm not in that automatic mode. I'm in real deliberate mode of picking words. And if I was giving a police statement, I also would be giving very deliberate words so that I didn't give wrong information or um so that I didn't, you know, trip myself up if I was a criminal or something like that. So when there's vagueness like this, it feels more deliberate than it would if we were in automatic mode.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Speaking of the vagueness, though, how much of that do you think could be contributed to the fact that, you know, whenever you know someone finds your spouse dead, they assume it was the husband or the wife? I mean, how much of this could be motivated by fear?

SPEAKER_04 53:23

Well we see some things like stuttering and we see the uh the word choice being very carefully considered there. Now that ultimately comes down to nerves. And the question is, would that be, and we'll let's talk in general here. So when someone is maybe being interviewed by the police or, you know, giving testimony in court, um, are those nerves caused by a desire, a fear, you know, not to be thought of as guilty or to you know trip yourself up and have everyone looking at you and wanting to give the very best impression of yourself? Or would that be from wanting to not have your lie smashed apart and having to stick to your lie very, very carefully? Um, so that the two things can show up in the same way. What I would do then is look at other things that are around the statements to see is this someone who is nervous and and worried, um, or is this someone who is hiding something and very carefully curating a story? I'm worried about their curation rather than worried about you know, am I going to trick myself up falsely here?

SPEAKER_00 54:28

I really like that word cure curated curation. It fits in very nicely with the next thing that I wanted to ask you about. Is you had talked um specifically I'm gonna look back at my notes. Oh, it was the difference between the bowling alley and the karate and the location and how there was some additional explaining. Like the question was posed, the question was answered, but then it kept going, and that happened in a few places. Um, and I think explaining is a sort of a way of saying curating a story, if if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure that's probably not the only reason someone might go a little deeper, but it feels like this additional explaining is related to making sure the curated narrative is told, even though it doesn't necessarily fit the set of questions that are asked.

SPEAKER_04 55:20

Yeah. So let again, let me talk in in very general terms and not specifically about this statement. But um, for example, um, I've just done a bit of work on a 911 call, and it's a deceptive 911 call. It's someone trying to set someone up um by calling 911 and and basically telling a story that's gonna get someone else into trouble. Um, now you think about how did that go down? Did the person making the 911 call go, I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna call 911 and I'm gonna go, right, this person's done. Oh crap, what have they done? Um, I need to think of what the or are they gonna sit down and go, right, I'm gonna call 911 and I'm gonna say this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened. Um, and does that make sense? And then what are they gonna ask me? Well, they might ask me for a description, so I'm gonna have to come up with a description of the person as well. You know, so the lies tend to be thought of, especially complex ones, thought of beforehand. Uh, and in that 911 call, then what you would find was that the operator would ask a question, and the answer wouldn't come directly from the question, but more what had been planned beforehand. Uh, so they were making their the questions fit what they had planned, if that makes sense. So there was some just some signs that they had invented a story beforehand and the story was all they had, so they were desperate to get the story out rather than give or or construct on the fly an honest or a dishonest answer to the question that they had been asked. So that's how uh that that's one of the ways that it that that that would work. But also, um, again, talking in general, if um my partner had um uh been um attacked, um and I was you know maybe guilty and wanting to make sure that the police weren't looking at me, I would be, I've got to like get across what a great relationship we had. You know, I've got to say how fantastically we got on. So I don't seem suspicious, so that I seem like a nice guy. Therefore, if they asked me a question like, you know, where were you at 4 p.m.? I might say where I was, but then I'd turn that story into what a nice guy I am. You know, so um, where were you at four o'clock? I was at the jewelry store. I was just thinking, what jewelry was it she would like to buy? Uh maybe something I could get her for Christmas, and I saw terrific gold jewelry. It was a little bit more than I can afford, but I went for and bought it anyway, or you put a deposit down for it anyway, and thought that will make a great Christmas present for this person that I love, love, love so much. I was asked where I was at four, and I've gone and given this big long how great am I statement because my priority when I went in to talk to the police was I want to make them think I'm great and we've got a great relationship. And this is all I think about is making her happy.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

This makes a lot of sense to me because uh this is where behaviorism comes into play, right? People behave in certain ways because they want to get a certain outcome or they want to convey something specific. You're describing that same thing through the use of words. So the way that someone say curates their story really depends on what is what do they want to get across to the person that they are speaking to. And you just described that really well, really well.

SPEAKER_04 58:30

I think there's another way that uh that we'll all be able to relate to. When you're watching uh a movie star being interviewed on a on a chat show, and the interviewer says something like, Do you have any phobias? I heard you're scared of heights, and the the movie star will go, Oh yeah, I hate heights, which in filming this film was terrible because we did this mad stunt scene where I was like 100 feet above the ground and I didn't have any wire on me, and all of a sudden they've gone from do you have any phobia to trying to sell tickets to see the film? Because that's the priority. That's why the movie star is on the the talk show. Um, and that is a very deliberate move there, but we all do it at some point when we want to steer the conversation towards what is important to us, what our priority is.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

I have a more global question about your work and how you develop your expertise. And it's really related to um maybe when you were talking about the 911 call, this is what made me think of it. So I'm wondering if, you know, you have a 911 call and you do your analysis, and then whoever, let's say it's a murderer, the person who um someone is convicted, do you go back to that 911 call and analyze it again with the knowledge of like who did it to like hone your skill a little bit? Does that make sense? Does my question make sense?

SPEAKER_04 59:47

It does make sense. Um I think um I I don't want to come across as very boastful here. Uh sometimes I analyze a 911 call and I know the outcome. So the question I ask is like, how could I tell? And not just making it up, but going using the the tactics that I know of and the principles that I could spot. You know, how could we tell at the time this was a bogus 911 call? I think there I there are some where I've maybe gone, this 911 call sounds very suspicious to me. Um, and um uh it turns out they have been suspicious, so I maybe just rest on my laurels there and go. Next one, Jack. Well, well done. I don't actually need to go back and look at that. I have to say, um, there were uh there was a case, and I wish I could remember the names off the top of my head. Um, last uh last year in um I want to say Florida, where a husband and life, wife were found um shot um at home. And um there was a 911 call that was released, and I don't know why they released it when the investigation was still ongoing, but it was um from his boss phoning up as it requesting a welfare check, and the internet was he sounds suspicious, the the boss did it, the boss did it, it can only have been the boss. And I listened to it and very quickly, um, I don't think it made a lot of difference, but very quickly um published something just saying, listen to what this guy's doing. And interestingly, given in mind what we've been talking about, he was answering the questions he was asked, he was giving information that was helpful to answer the questions and so on. And I said, There's nothing to see here. The boss is not, you know, stop picking on this guy. There's nothing to see here. You know, he he's the only public name there, which is why you're jumping on him. And lo and behold, um, the the woman's I think ex was arrested shortly after um for for the murders. And I think it's um that that very nicely sums up some of the things that we've been talking about tonight, where it's those direct answers to the questions that are the biggest guide to whether someone is um being fully honest or whether they're hiding something and or holding something back.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

So, what's your overall feeling about the conversation that we just discussed?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

I mean, my overall feeling is I would be asking a lot more questions. I would be asking um to break down exactly what happened between the end of the phone call, the phone call was at 10:06, what time did you arrive at school? Why did you do those things in that order and so on? How did you know the door was unlocked? And it could be the locks broken. Do you know that that that that is a legitimate explanation for that? But all the so many questions there that makes me uh very uneasy. You know, none of us talk properly. Someone could probably watch one of my episodes and then listen to me talk to you on your podcast and go, Jack said this, Jack said that. Um he didn't answer that question directly. He moved on to talk about something else there. None of us are perfect speakers, but it's the number of questions and and red flags that make me go, there is more going on here. There's surely more going on here. Um and it would be great to find out more and not have him sitting there knowing that the the investigation is already over.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

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