SPEAKER_01 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Today we're excited to welcome back Kathy Decker, founder of Incident Response and Investigative Strategies, IRIS. Kathy has spent decades working in the fields of investigative strategy, threat assessment, and critical incident response. Through IRIS, she and her team bring together experts from a variety of disciplines to support complex investigations and help organizations respond to challenging situations. Today we'll talk about Kathy's expertise, the mission behind IRIS, and how collaborative investigative approaches can make a meaningful difference in difficult cases. Kathy, we're so glad to have you back and welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you. Happy to be here. Now, you originally came on very early in our podcasting experience on season one, episode 15, with Doug McGregor, and you helped us think through some things related to Jodie Kilgore's Unsolved Homicide. But for listeners who may not have heard that first appearance, will you start out by telling us a little bit about your background and what led you to create Iris? You bet.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Well, my background is law enforcement. So it really all began when I graduated from college with a degree in criminal justice. And I had to figure out what I was going to do with my life. You know, those important questions that we all face at some point. And I decided uh, you know what? I might as well just uh fill out some applications for law enforcement and let's see what happens. Well, I did that, and much to my surprise, I was hired fairly quickly by the King County Sheriff's Office, and that's out of Seattle, Washington. And I started in October of 1985. So we're going back just a minute or two here. And when I began my career, I was fascinated and intrigued with investigations. So that was really a focus from day one. Well, of course, when you start out working in law enforcement, you start out working as a patrol deputy or a police officer, depending upon whether you're with the city or county, and I was with county sheriff. And as I worked patrol, I learned from my peers and I had a few mentors more and more about investigative techniques. And I was able to talk with the detectives that were working there at the local level, and I asked them to let me help them, which they did. And so I began to learn what all went into putting a case together. And with that, I decided I really wanted to focus on becoming a homicide detective. And at that point in the 80s, it was really hard to get into that unit. There were, I think, nine, maybe ten detectives, and everybody in that unit pretty much was staying in that unit until they retired or left for some other reason. But I wasn't letting that stop me. So I decided I was going to take a path through criminal investigations, starting with working in a special assault unit, and I worked child abuse cases and adult physical abuse cases. And from there I was fortunate enough to transition into major crimes. They had several openings because our county was growing in population, the crime rate was going up, and they needed detectives. And I was in the right place at the right time. I had a very strong work ethic, and one thing led to another, and I went into major crimes. And that was a passion. I loved working homicide cases. I loved the team aspect. I enjoyed learning about things that I didn't previously know about. There's so much science that goes into investigations. I really was fascinated just with behavior, how people react when they're under stress, what causes a criminal to do what they do. It was absolutely fascinating. And I had an opportunity to work with some of the best of the best. Sadly, Washington State is known for many things, one of which is serial killers. So we had our fair share. I was able to work on the Green River Task Force, and I was able to team up with some of those investigators when it came to the evidence search piece. And I found that I really enjoyed evidence search. I enjoyed coordinating those searches, working with the search and rescue volunteers, figuring out who was really good at doing what aspects of search that needed to be done, putting all that together. And it was fascinating when it all came together and we were able to actually find what we were looking for. And so that really projected me into making a career change about halfway through my 34-year career. I applied for and became the search and rescue coordinator for our sheriff's office. And I was able to manage, oh, probably 300 plus search and rescue volunteers. We had nine different search and rescue units, very, very busy. And one of the things I really wanted to focus on with the SAR volunteers was evidence search. They were really good at it. And since the 70s, since Bundy really, search and rescue in King County had been used to partner with law enforcement on evidence search because law enforcement really doesn't have the training, the time to go out and search this huge geographical areas. We're a mountainous area in Seattle. And when you're looking for minute pieces of evidence, I mean, how do you even do that? Well, search and rescue, that's what they're all about. So I found that when we really partnered and worked with them, we did some amazing things. And so I did that for about five years or so. And from there, I decided to take a break. I went back to patrol. I wanted to take a break from being on call. And I also wanted to just share my knowledge with some of the other young ones that were coming up. And after three years of patrol, I started to get the itch again to go back into major crimes. I wanted to finish out my career in that unit if I could. And it just so happened there was a single opening in the unit, and I applied for it and was welcomed back in. And I was able to finish out my career in major crimes. And I think retired in early 2020 and uh moved from Washington State to Idaho with my husband. We had family here that we wanted to be closer to. But I found even though I had retired, I still wanted to do the work. There was still work to be done. I felt a passion for it, a calling for it. And interestingly, I was getting phone calls from colleagues, from friends asking if I could help on searches, if I could help do case investigation. And of course I said yes, because that's my love. And one thing led to another. And at one point, after an extensive search in eastern Washington, I was sitting around, actually, I think we were sitting in the bar talking with some colleagues. And I said, gosh, wouldn't it be great if we could just figure out a way to do this as a business? And everybody was like, oh, it'd be fantastic. And Doug McGregor was there. Um, he was part of that conversation. Elizabeth Hudson was there. Um, she's my analyst. And as we talked more about it, I started to think, well, I wonder if we could do this as a business. So I took that idea home, presented it to my husband, and he was on board. He said, yes, if you want to do that, uh, let's do it. He also has a law enforcement background. He also has a background in the administrative side of the house. He's good at contracts. Uh, he did some work for the Boeing Company back in the day, and through that work, he learned a lot about contracts, um, working businesses, uh, that kind of thing, which turned out to be incredibly helpful for us. So we jumped into this whole business model, brand new. No idea what we were doing, uh, but we did know a couple of things. One was we better get an attorney on board to help us do this right. We better make sure we have the right bank. We better make sure that you know we get the right people in to do this type of work. And it's amazing when you decide you're gonna move forward and do something. It seems like the doors open. And I was able to bring in several colleagues that I thought very highly of, to include Delphine Gregor, and we formed this inner team of investigators with some unique skill sets. Um, I have Doug is the geographic profiler, I have an analyst, uh, we have a couple private investigators, one who's a retired homicide detective, I have a DNA specialist who manages a DNA lab. Um, we have some administrative help. And I just recently brought in another team member who has a background in the digital world. So he's really good at audio and video analysis and can enhance audio and do all sorts of incredible things that has been actually very helpful for us on several of the cases that we're working on. So here we sit today. We're still a brand new business. It'll be two years in October. We have a lot more to learn, but we're excited about where this is going. And our our hope and our mission is to just give answers to families that are sitting and waiting for answers. Unresolved criminal cases are a nightmare for families. Um they just, you know, these cases sit on shelves, uh, they gather dust, and there's all sorts of reasons, many valid reasons why they're not being worked, but the point is they're not being worked, and they can be worked. And I want to help law enforcement understand that they don't need to carry that burden alone, that if they partner with us, civilians that have the same passion, the same abilities, highly trained, highly skilled, that we can get these cases resolved, at least make an effort to get answers for the families, even if we don't end up with a conviction, we can at least, we hope, recover the remains for families who have loved ones that are missing, and or help them understand what happened and why the case is where it is. So that is kind of a long-winded answer to your question.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

No, it's a great answer. And um, after listening to all that, I just really have one question. Do you do you have any openings?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

You know, we that's what I'm interested in. We always have openings, and and you don't know this yet, but I do have you secretly in my subject matter expert folders. So I've been gathering um the names of individuals and and people that I've met along this adventure that I'm on. And uh we have an incredible amount of uh of people that have really cool skill sets. So yes, you're already in there. You just didn't know you were in there.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Just didn't know it. Yeah, we we talk about this, we talk about this quite a bit whenever you know we we kind of illustrate what we've learned and how we've gone about it, and you know, how we've you know, some of the mistakes we've made and what we've learned from those mistakes as we've kind of built this podcast. And but at least and I both agree that we we occasionally get to the point where we just say, well, we'd like to have killed our guiding counselors at this point, because we would have probably taken a different route now that we've shown such a huge interest in this.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Right. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely, yeah. You know, and um I no, I love what you're doing as well. I think anything that can bring attention to these cases can give families a voice. Um, is it's not just therapy. I mean, it it just it makes a difference in the world. It it truly does because people care. And I think I think the victim families need to understand and know that that there are people out there that truly care and they're gonna do everything that they can to help.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yes, I want to just publicly acknowledge and thank you for your mentorship and your partnership. You know, we came across you, as I mentioned, fairly early in our journey, and we were really focused on two cases at the time, uh Jody Kilgore and Ian Rogers. And you you did not hesitate to help us. And I think we were like shaking our heads going, oh my gosh, look at these people who are here to help us. So you you like walk your talk, right? And we have had now an opportunity to meet you in person twice. One time it was planned, and the other time it was a surprise. Um, and so you really do find time. Like we were maybe about an hour away from you several months ago, and we came up and uh you must like sitting in a bar having conversations because that's what we did uh with some of your other team members, and we went back to Jodi and we went back to Ian and we talked about it again, and then we um met you at CrimeCon and we talked to you again, and we'll see you again at CrimeCon next year. So I just really want our listeners to know that you and this organization, you you are actually doing what you're saying. We have not had as a positive experience with several other organizations where we're waiting to hear back. Um, and so we're just grateful and thank you for everything that you're doing to support us. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

That means that means a lot. That's validates the reason that we do what we do. So I appreciate that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

So while you were talking, um, I've I sensed a theme. I heard you say team approach, I heard you say coordination, I heard you say partnering. And so what you have done is you bring together professionals from a lot of different backgrounds. And why is that multidisciplinary approach so important to your work? Oh, great question.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

And it I look at it in terms of a jigsaw puzzle, and I use that as an example oftentimes. So you have all these pieces that need to come together and fit together to make the whole. And once you have the whole, you have an understanding of what it is you were building. And I think what we do is very similar. So my idea is that if, hey, if we can bring together a half a dozen, a dozen, it doesn't matter, different experts, and they don't need to know everything, but that one thing that they're really, really good at could be the one thing that actually gets us the answer that we're looking for. And how fun is it when you get to work with other people and learn something brand new? It's I think it's it's wonderful. And the older I get, the more I realize and acknowledge what I don't know, which is kind of interesting, but I think it's it's very true for many of us. You you get to a point in life where you're like, gosh, there's just so much happening, uh, especially now with technology and AI, and it's exciting to me and to my brain about what the potential is as we move forward.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

And you have been in this work for a very long time, as I have been in the field of education. And in education, things have changed, and I would imagine the same thing is happening um in your field. So, how has the field of investigation changed over like the last 10 years? And what what do you think is in the horizon? What's coming next?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Oh, great question. So I think it's changed twofold. One was science, of course, and what we're able to do now with with DNA, with forensic genetic genealogy is mind-blowing. Um, the other piece is technology. I mean, AI is is a fast-moving train coming down the track. And although it's daunting in part, um, it's also fascinating as to the doors it can open and the time it can save. So I foresee in the future, investigators, I hope, are going to be able to use AI to save hours and hours of time trying to research and look up information to organize information. When you have case files that are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of pages, you can't, as a human, we can't go through that one page at a time and retain everything that we're reading. On top of that, in law enforcement, you don't have the ability to spend that much time. Everything is fast moving. Even in cold case work, there's so many cold cases, you don't get the luxury of just sitting down with one case and working it until it's resolved. It just isn't the way it goes. So I think AI is going to be a huge help in saving time and helping um investigators know quite the right path to take at the at the right time. I think it's going to be um exciting and uh yeah, I look forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, even on a small scale, we're using it. There's a particular family that we're supporting, and there's some things happening uh around this missing person case. And Michael and I were talking about something, and I said, I remember somebody said this. And I said, Well, where was that? Was that in a podcast? Was that in a FOIA? Was that in the email? Where was it? And so I was I was able to grab that FOIA and put it into my project folder and say, search this document for what it was that somebody had said, and it's not in the FOIA. So we were able to rule that out within what, five minutes, if that as opposed to like having to read through the FOIA and find out if it was there. So on a much smaller scale, we're also um finding it very helpful in our work.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, one of the things I've done is since you brought up AI, is I've built an AI agent that's designed for investigative research. And so I built that in in it's been really great because now what I do is I create a separate folder for every case we look at, and I put all the associated documents in there, combine them all, have it outline the timelines for me because that's not always clear. I mean, a lot of those FOIA is we get information that's handwritten notes, dates that may be off, and then it it helps me organize that in a way. I mean, the first time I tried to do it by hand, it took hours, and I think once we did it that way, you know, 30 seconds. Um, it's a time multiplier, is what it does. You know, so it's it's definitely the wave of the future, as much as I hate that term, it's coming. I just I I just want to make sure one of the things about AI that people don't understand is right now it's a little bit out of control and we're not really sure where it's gonna land. I think it's gonna be an excellent tool, though, for this type of work.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Oh, I I agree 100%. And I think like with anything that that that's new, I mean, we can even maybe make that same argument for with DNA when we started doing genetic genealogy. I mean, everything is a little wonky when it first hits, right? And then you have to kind of figure out what are the rules of engagement? What's that gonna look like? What are the parameters in which we're gonna use this? And how are we gonna secure the information? Because that that's also a big concern, of course, is you know, how is AI using what we're inputting? Where is that going? And what if we need something to be secured? Uh, but yes, it's uh, I mean, it's I just have so much fun with it because I can think of a million questions to ask, and having all the information in one place is like one-stop shopping, and it's just fun. I mean, you can just keep asking information and drilling it down and drilling it down just to see what you get, and it's uh it's really fun.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yes, so you know, um, a lot of our listeners are advocates or they are family members of missing and and murdered loved ones. And what we have learned through this journey um is that one of the primary, maybe barriers that we have seen is the communication line between families and law enforcement. And so what advice would you offer to our families as they work with law enforcement and investigators?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Oh, wow, great question. And yes, and uh having spent over 34 years in that profession, I'm will be the first to acknowledge that we don't have the best bedside manor. Uh, and there's there's a lot of reasons for that that we don't need to go into. So to answer the question, I mean, how do families do this? I think that the best way is to try every way. So if it's a situation where you're just not hearing back from law enforcement, handwritten letters work wonders, emails, phone calls, and I hate to say it, but sometimes just pestering over and over and over. again until you get a response is what you end up having to do. Another option, and we talked about this too, um Alyssa and Michael early on is using a platform such as this to really get the word out and work work around that. You know, go go up and you know set up your own tip line if you need to get the community engaged and talking about the case. And then if you get the community engaged and talking about the case, that in and of itself can put pressure on law enforcement to just respond. You know, and and that's I think what is so frustrating for families oftentimes is they just feel like they're not being heard. But I also want to say on the other side of it from a law enforcement standpoint, it's much easier for law enforcement for a detective if there's one point of contact within the family. It's really hard when you have multiple family members who are pestering, calling, emailing, and that kind of thing it's very difficult. So a family can at least agree on a single point of contact, which isn't always easy because oftentimes we have families that are divided, but that is something I would highly suggest and recommend to start.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah that is a that's a great suggestion and I'm sitting here thinking about how we can better serve our families and thinking through each particular family we've supported and do they each have one specific person? I think most of them do, but that's definitely something we can take back and work on.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah I think it's we haven't really said that before but I think it's kind of evolved that way. And then when the when the law enforcement agencies don't you know respond or don't listen or just don't show any kind of acknowledgement we add a second then we add a third and add a fourth and finally when there's a fleet of people knocking on the door they tend to call back.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah so we had a really really good conversation with you very early on um and you gave us a list of things to do and and when Kathy says you do it, we do it. And so you mentioned handwritten letters and we were working um with Michelle on uh the Cody Haney case which is in a county right next door to us and we were going over to meet Michelle and and talk with her for the first time and Michael said oh well let's just drop by the sheriff's office and see if anybody's there I think it was maybe a Saturday. Yeah and no one was there and we sat in the truck and we were like wait what did Kathy said she said she said write a note and so Michael goes here's what we're gonna do we found some paper I don't know somewhere in the truck and we wrote a note and it said hey we're with tragedy we've emailed we've reached out you know we'd like to communicate with you and we wrote this great note and then we were like wait a second we how are we going to get this on the We tape I said I have stamps right and stamps you don't have to lick anymore they're stickers so we took the edge of a flat of stamps and we stuck that note onto the sheriff's office door and lo and behold within two days they responded to our email. And so that's it was great. And actually last week we spoke um for the first time with the sheriff in that county um over the phone he called me and I was like oh my god I saw it caught on caller ID and I'm like oh my gosh oh my gosh the sheriff and we spoke I spoke to him for like an hour and he was wonderful and very helpful. And so what we have learned from you the mantra that we have from Kathy is persistent pressure um constantly if you don't have a bumper sticker that says persistent pressure on your car you probably should uh because that is what we tell our families right um and it's good pressure not to be I don't know what's the word I'm looking for I don't like well not pain but be specific harassing right be specific yeah keep going keep emailing keep asking um and it has worked that it apps I could not believe putting a note on the door with a stamp um worked but it did so what Kathy says we do.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Well if I was on the fence I was like I'm not sure if the note worked or whether he just goes crap they're in town now I'd rather talk to him on the phone than have him come in here.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Whatever. Right, right whatever it whatever works I don't care it works. So our listeners know that part of what brought me at least to this work is like my weird fascination with true crime. And when you said serial killers like I literally mouthed it because I knew exactly what you were going to say. And we watch Mindhunter and all those kinds of shows. However we know that that's not actually the reality of um what your work is so can you talk about some of the biggest misconceptions that people have about investigations from what they've seen you know on television or on social media?

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Oh absolutely great question and maybe not so much today but I bet it still is so back when CSI first became the TV show of the century and now I don't know we have what four or five different versions of CSI Miami, CSI New York the biggest hurdle in court was helping the jury to understand through testimony that results don't happen in six seconds. In fact back then it would take over a year to get DNA not 30 seconds so that was a huge problem and it probably still is to some extent today I know like on the FBI shows I'm always rolling my eyes when they get the cell phone data analysis back in 10 seconds and then they they're all you know on the screen and they've they're following they've got a line on where this person is and everybody's moving to that point. I'm like yes it would be lovely if it actually worked like that but unfortunately um it does not uh technology is incredible however there is time that is necessary for that to actually produce results and oftentimes detectives have to write search warrants too it's not just we can't just want a friend and get information. So writing a search warrant itself is very time consuming especially if you're going after technical information or scientific information. So that has to be written then it has to be served and then there's a timeframe in which the recipient has to give the data back to law enforcement. Now there's a few exceptions of course if it's an exit and circumstance for example you have a child kidnapping case you likely will be able to get cooperation from the phone carrier immediately and get information if phone carrier information is pertinent to your case. I mean it's it all depends upon what the evidence is of course but I think that's probably the the biggest um biggest drawback from from these true crime shows is just the speed in which information is being relayed back because in real life it it's just not not that case.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And I think it's also there's a massive amount of judgment that happens in social media quick judgment. You know people watch I don't know a two minute segment on whatever and they decide there's some sort of expert and then this whole thing goes wild you know on Facebook or Instagram or something like that. And um you know obviously social media has its positives but I do think that social media and all the time that people spend there is probably also not serving um this work.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Well and you bring up a good point um you're correct um and it does have some positive and the the difficulty is finding that balance so social media allows anyone to say anything about anyone and then the reader of that information can apply whatever they wait weight they want to whatever it is that's being said but it takes on a life of its own especially when it's incorrect information. The plus side of it is oftentimes you can find some really good intel in what people are saying when you go through and look at the blogs, you go through and look at the comment section and in fact occasionally you might even have your suspect or persons of interest that are that are making comments. So it can be helpful but just like you said it can be equally hurtful.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

It's a good I I got worried when you first asked that question alisa because we we asked Julia Cowley a very similar question and she ruined the show X-Files for me which is one of my favorite one of my favorite shows I'm like wait a second X-Files isn't real you've got to be kidding me well speaking of Julia thank you for that I want to talk more about the behavioral analysis piece.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

You mentioned it at the very beginning and and it's it's really where my I live I should have just been a behaviorist I that's what I should have done. I so I would love for you to talk about the overlay of behavioral analysis and investigative strategy and why are those pieces so important when you're working on these complex cases.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Oh good uh yes extremely important and I want to start out by saying that is not my area of expertise I just have a lot of experience dealing of course with human behavior but I'm by no means a subject matter expert in it. However, I do have those on my team who are and Doug McGregor of course would be one of those and Dr. Lee Miller would be another one of those. But behavior is what drives action and when you're talking about a crime being committed you're talking about human beings who are interacting with each other in a positive or negative way I mean behavior directs every single thing that we do. And once we understand what those triggers are and what the behaviors are that typically get us into trouble or can lead us down the criminal path it really helps an investigator and understand the the mindset what's the mental state of the person who's committing that act and that's important because when we look at murder we look at um felony assault robbery your mental state will depend upon the the charge that's going to be that you're going to face the the criminal charge. So if you're intentionally committing an act that's different than if you are negligent and committing an act. So understanding how the mind works and how that person is or why that person is doing what they're doing I think is really the crux of investigations. I mean that's that's really the end all why do we do what we do and how do we analyze that and understand it number one so we can hold that person accountable for the right crime and number two so we can hopefully understand how to prevent someone from committing that crime in the future. So it's it's kind of a twofer right there.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

I want to go a little further with that specifically when you're talking about law enforcement determining what charge to move I think it's called probable cause. We have a couple of the families that we have supported where probable cause documents with the charge have been taken to the state attorney's office and in both cases um in our little small world those were declined. So I I think I have a two-parter how how does law enforcement go around go about determining what charge to I guess lead with maybe that's not the right word and and and to your knowledge how does the state attorney's office decide whether or not to move forward with the charge or to turn it back around yeah those are both really good questions.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

So law enforcement is tasked with determining whether there's probable cause so what is the definition of probable cause you know if a reasonable person feels that a crime has been is being or is going to be committed well so it's a state of reasonableness and there's variations within probable cause it's not black and white. So once law enforcement has determined that there is probable cause that often means well probable cause for what? To believe a crime was committed or to arrest someone for the commission of that crime because those can be two different things sometimes depending upon the evidence that you have available. So you might be able to articulate hey we have probable cause to believe a murder happened there is no question that this person who was stabbed 24 times in the back was murdered because you can't do that to yourself, right? At least not that I'm aware of I haven't seen that yet. However, you may not be able to develop probable cause to arrest the suspect right away for whatever those reasons are. But let's say that you do let's say you've developed probable cause and you as a law enforcement agency make the arrest. That's great. So now you've arrested this person. Now you have to send a charging document or a certification of probable cause to the prosecutor for their review because they're tasked with making a decision on whether or not there's enough evidence to support a criminal charge. Are they actually going to file a criminal charge against that person or against those persons based on the evidence that you have at that particular time and the answer may very well be no we we can't we can't do that. You have probable cause to make an arrest but we don't have a chargeable case the standards to charge somebody are going to be higher than that level of probable cause that you've established if that makes sense. So the attorney has to consider all the legal aspects they have to look at previous case history they're gonna look at offender history they're gonna look at the physical evidence they're going to have to consider how a jury might interpret the information or the evidence and they have to consider what is even admissible in court. Not all evidence and all testimony is admissible in a trial in fact there's you know oftentimes maybe a third of it isn't. And that's okay because that's not may not be pertinent or relevant but the attorneys have to figure that part out. So because an attorney's office or prosecutor says no we're declining the case we're not going to file a charge doesn't mean that the attorney is saying the crime never occurred and the attorney might not even be saying that he or she doesn't think that the person that you're that you're calling the suspect didn't do the crime, they might agree with you. They're just saying hey look we just don't have a chargeable case. We have to go to trial and show proof beyond a reasonable doubt and we do not feel we've met that standard. Now what the prosecutor should be doing is relaying back to the investigative unit or the investigator a list of what they would like that detective or investigator to do to try to bring up that level of probable cause, to strengthen it, to make it a chargeable case. And so the prosecutor might come back and say hey what we really need to do in this case is we need to rule out that some other person did it. So we're gonna need to do DNA analysis. We're going to need to fund that and so law enforcement then would have to of course make the decision on how they're going to proceed or if they're gonna proceed forward do they have the funding for that continue the investigation there's a lot of discussion that would happen at that point. But just because the prosecutor's office says no go now does not mean that they're saying it didn't happen or that that person didn't do it. They're just saying look we don't have the evidence to support it. We just don't and so then it's back in the lap of law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

One thing that happened in one of our cases that I'm kind of curious about that because after listening to this it just seems highly it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I should just say it that way. But we had one where a case was presented for probable cause for um was it battery? Aggravated aggravated battery it went to the state attorney's office they decided it wasn't enough evidence to prosecute and they went sent it back to the Waucala County Sheriff's Office in which they closed the case it was closed at the state attorney's level and then it was closed at the Waucala County level for Latanya Thomas and it doesn't seem like there was a conversation if there was and we found no evidence of it of oh you need to go find more information on X it was like it was decided to just close that that investigation on both sides to to us that seemed bizarre but are there cases are there cases that that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Well and like you said there's no evidence of a conversation but there very well may have been a phone conversation that happened. I mean we just we just don't know um and yes I mean it could be a a case where uh maybe it's a statute of limitations issue. They can't move forward because we were beyond the statute of limitations and law enforcement perhaps didn't realize that the statute of limitations had had been changed or that there was something different about that. Maybe it's uh the filing standard has changed. So the the law reads one way the prosecutor's office filing standard um might be more conservative for whatever the reasons are but I would expect that there would be some conversation versus just saying no we're not doing this and then just having law enforcement um accept that is seems a little odd to me as well. But like I said there may have been phone conversations um back and forth between the investigator and the prosecutor. So perhaps um questions were asked and answers were given and both sides felt that at this particular time it wasn't um wasn't possible to to continue with the investigation.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

No that's good to hear because we that that was one of the things that was really confusing to us. And here's the good news I mean we've go back to what we talked about in the beginning of this you know this podcast where we just kept pushing with that persistent pressure and that case has been reopened. What was the date on that babe?

SPEAKER_01 40:45

May 4th of this year. It was closed in 2017 less than a year after Latanya um was killed and it was reopened on May 4th of this year due to the diligence of her family.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Wow that's fantastic and again that goes back with what we were talking about right that persistence and putting the pressure on and demanding answers. I think that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

And what that tells me is that perhaps there wasn't that conversation that happened or perhaps there were some other motivators or reasons for that case being closed when in fact it probably would have benefited from some additional investigation which is currently happening and we're we're excited about we're standing by to see um what happens so I want to um go back to Iris a little bit and without revealing you know information maybe that you can't can you talk about maybe a case that you your team has supported that just really stood out to you?

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Oh absolutely um yeah we have a few cases where we have uh non-disclosure agreements but this particular case we do not so this is a a case out of Washington and our group has been working on this for almost two years and it is a case that um actually came to my attention through uh a friend of a colleague of mine and they had reached out and said hey can you help this this person she's good friends with this family and they're struggling and it was the it's a case of of Autumn Stone and Autumn was a uh young mother who was found deceased uh in Green Lake uh in August of 2019 and there are quite a few questions around manner and cause of death and the family felt very strongly that Seattle had not conducted an adequate uh investigation into the cause and manner of death and asked us to review the files that they had obtained through a FOIA and we agreed to do that and we also agreed with the family that there were sufficient questions to be asked and an additional investigation would be warranted and beneficial for everybody involved and our team has met with the medical examiner's office once in person several times through phone conversations the manner of death in that case was classified as undetermined which was appropriate uh cause the death was basically suffocation she had some ligature uh shoestrings around her neck when she was pulled out of the lake and the question became whether or not this was a suicide or a homicide and it is our opinion our team's opinion based on all the work we've done and we've done some reenactments we've been out to the scene we've done interviews uh that this case this particular case the preponderance of evidence suggests that this is a homicide is our belief um as is the family's belief so we've been trying to uh motivate Seattle police to reopen the case. We haven't been successful yet, but we have been successful in getting the case presented to the prosecutor's office for for their review, which is what's happening right now. And that review, um in their eyes, will determine whether or not they feel that there needs to be additional work done. And if they feel that there needs to be work done, the prosecutor's office will have that conversation with Seattle. And hopefully that will happen. So we we are pleased that we've made it this far and we're we're not anywhere near giving up. This is a case now that has become pretty near and dear to our hearts. And there's it's there's a lot that goes into this. I just touched on some real basic components of it, uh, but it is an example of the type of work that we do and um our passion for making sure that the family has a complete understanding of of what happened to their loved one and um why it was handled the way it was.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Well, listen, that story kind of makes me think of we have we have another case we're working on where the matter of death was ruled as suicide. And what we found interesting about that is it was ruled suicide. What was it, an hour and a half?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah, I think they said 90 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

90 minutes, it was ruled as suicide. But there were two pieces of evidence, one was missing and one was there that are particular interest to me. And one, they found the shell casing days later, and it was found by someone that, in my opinion, probably should not have touched it, and because they would be one of the primary suspects in the case. And then the other piece was there's a pillow, and the the reason the pillow becomes interesting to me is because the path of the bullet went through the pillow, but you can tell because there's no blood evidence inside the path that it went through the pillow first. Correct. And so to me, that seemed odd for a suicide. Why would they muffle the sound to themselves? And then and then you look at the statistics of it, this particular person is a woman, and this is not a very common way. In fact, I looked it up, it's 32% of the known, you know, accidental shootings or suicides are associated with firearms and women. So absolutely, I I thought with those three things, coming up to the conclusion a suicide in 90 minutes seemed awfully fast and in my opinion, not thorough.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Yeah, agreed. And devil's advocate, just a bit on the pillow and muffling the sound. And I don't know where this happened, but it could simply be to not alert neighbors uh and perhaps they just didn't want to be discovered right away. So it would depend upon like where this happened and the proximity to others. Uh, but I have seen that before in in my work where that seemed to be the the concern or or mindset. Was there any type of written note? And oftentimes there isn't, but I was just curious in that case if there were.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

In this situation, there was no note.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Okay. Yeah, it definitely sounds to me like, you know, it would potentially benefit from additional investigative work to be done. You bet.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

And that is precisely what uh the family is doing. And we're actually getting ready to to launch that story next week. And the, you know how you talked about like the one point of contact, right? The fierce, the fierce advocate. And this is in this case, it is her sister. And she is, she just wants the investigation investigated. Yeah. She's not necessarily saying, hey, reopen, reopen, reopen. She's saying, can someone please investigate this 90-minute investigation that came to this determination?

SPEAKER_02 47:45

You know what? That's interesting because in Autumn's case, that's exactly what the family said. They're they're not wanting necessarily uh a conviction and someone to go to prison, although they certainly would be supportive of that. They just want to know what happened and who did this to her. That's their biggest quest. And also, same thing, they want to know why this was not investigated properly and closed so quickly after she was found.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Yes, and in this case of um our family that we're supporting, the person who um found this bullet casing uh was ex-law enforcement. So, and we have a very small parish department and they all know each other, and so there are a lot of um sort of interesting twists and turns and considerations.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

So I can only uh imagine, and that is a difficulty when you're talking about small agencies, rural agencies, where everybody knows everybody, and the sheriff's kid plays football with, you know, John Smith, who's the criminal who lives down the street and his kid's always in trouble. I mean, it it gets really complicated uh very quickly. So I I can imagine that that one probably has uh quite a few uh questions attached to it.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yes, and and we're really looking forward to being able to, we, you know, when we're working on our stories and supporting our families, we've been doing it for a good two or three months before we start publishing our episodes. So uh we're ready to go on this one, and I'm really um excited for our listeners to be able to hear it and support this family. And you know, Michael said at the beginning that there's been this funny phenomenon when we talk to people, we're like, ooh, I should have done that, right? As a career, we talk to our dive experts who are looking for missing vehicles, and we're both certified divers and we're like, oh, we can go help, right? Or we talk to to Doug and we're like, hey, we know maps. We should have done that. So for someone who's interested in pursuing a career in investigative analysis or incident response, what are some qualities or skills that are really important for that person to bring to the table?

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Oh, yeah. Well, one of the big attributes I think that anyone has that can contribute to what we're doing and what what you both are doing is just curiosity, just being curious and asking why, or more importantly, maybe asking why not, and being open to different perspectives and understandings. I think that's huge to not just get tunnel vision and focus in on whatever it is that you think happened because that's what you think happened. It's really important and not easy to do, but you need to listen to the other side and consider what the other side has to say. And really, if you can do all of that, um, you would be someone that would be really good at investigations. And if you are at all savvy on the computer, and especially we just talked about AI, AI is a heck of a lot of fun. It's have like having Encyclopedia Britannica right at your fingertips. You can look up anything, and it's a it's a great way for people that have that interest to just start jumping in and researching, gather information. You might read something that 100 people have already read, and you and you alone might find the one piece in that writing that is the key to the whole thing. So I just encourage people if you're curious and and you want to be part of, I mean, there's so many opportunities today to jump on the bandwagon, you know, uh start doing some research on cold cases, um, get some friends together, make a team, go for it. I think that's really going to be the answer for us as we move forward with these.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

For our younger audience out there, especially our millennials, the Encyclopedia Britannica used to be a series of books that you would order and they would bring them to your house like one volume at a time. So you'd like to get A and then get B. Yeah. You know, I know that's a lot of people, you know, I it's the fact that I know what it is tells me that I feel old.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

I literally had a visual memory when she was talking about this. We had a ranch home when I was growing up, but it had a basement because I lived in a state that has basements. I know not all states do that, but my state had basements. And in between the living room and the stairs to the basement were these built-in shelves. And there was like eight of them, and they were full of encyclopedias. That's right. Yep, you know, and that's just how you got the information. So, like when you said that, I in my mind I literally had a flashback of my living room when I was growing up in Arvada, Colorado, and the door to the garage. And so, yeah, that's a that's a thing. Who who knew? But yeah, now we don't need those anymore. Thankfully. Yeah, thankfully. Where can our listeners learn more about Iris and the work you and your team are doing? Well, pretty easy.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Um, if they're interested, they can certainly reach out to me personally at my email. Kathy at Iris Um Investigative Strategies.com. And uh just have them have them reach out, and I'll be more than happy to have a conversation through email. Um, my my phone number is also out there. That's uh 208-999-8460. I would ask if you email me and you're interested in this type of work, please give me a bio or a little bit about who you are and uh what uh types of skill sets that you that you have and where your interests are, and uh we can go from there.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Our purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family, and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode resonated with you, we encourage you to subscribe, leave a review, and share the podcast so these important stories continue to be heard. Together, we can preserve their memories and ensure their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for cases we should cover or questions about what you heard, you can connect with us through our Facebook group, Tragedy a True Crime Podcast, on X at Tragedy Podcast, by email at Tragedy a True Crime Podcast at gmail.com, or by visiting our website www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com. Thank you for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.