SPEAKER_02 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Today we're joined by our friend Mark Frickey to talk about something that affects all of us personal safety. Whether you're heading to work, traveling, meeting someone for the first time, or simply going about your daily routine, there are steps we can take to reduce risk and stay aware of our surroundings. This conversation isn't about living in fear. It's about being prepared, recognizing warning signs, and making informed decisions. Mark brings a wealth of knowledge and practical experience, and we're excited to learn from him today. Thank you for being here and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Well, let's start off first with just talking uh how we how we met Mark.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, it's been six years. Did we just say that? So six years. We we started with coming to the Taporado camping rally here with a new camp group, and we met both you and your wife, Stephanie, um, here. Yeah. And we've we've seen each other quite a bit. I mainly associate with you with being the police officer that is a um basically policing all the alcohol at at the at the at the rallies. That's we've gone from law enforcement of criminal behavior to policing the alcohol bar. That's that's my first memory of you.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yes. Yes, I I am the bartender and I get to do all the cleanup afterwards. So yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

That is true. I I kind of explain these rallies to people. I tell them they're adult summer day camp.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

So you know we're here for four or five days. We happen to be in Colorado. And you guys are our friends now, and all of the people that we rally with are our friends. So, you know, we get to pick who we camp next to and and we volunteer and we go out to dinner and hang out together. So it it's it's like an abbreviated summer day camp.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

It's we have made a lot of friends. Yeah, a lot of good friends.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah. Yep. We do like cornhole and trivia, and you name it, it happens.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Karaoke.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

And yes. Karaoke. Karaoke.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

And all kinds of fun, interesting things have happened along the way as as we rally across the country. Michael, why don't you talk um about what this was your idea, and I I think it's a great idea. So let's tell our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, one of the reasons we started focusing on this is we talk a lot about people's, you know, risk levels and what they get exposed to. And when it comes to people who are part of our stories, our missing people, the people who've been murdered, and the families we deal with. And it's all it always feels very reactive to me. Like we, it's always looked at from a hindsight perspective. Right. And so I thought it might be interesting to look at it from a proactive perspective and then understanding more what you do when we don't talk to you at the rallies. Right. Um, and so I I thought you'd be a great guest. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

And we can help. We'd like for you to start out by introducing yourself and just tell us about yourself and how you came to, I guess it's your past career, but it still continues with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Okay, I'm a retired sergeant from the Prescott Arizona Police Department. I have 28-year total law enforcement as a cop in Nebraska and a cop in the Air Force prior to that. Um, my primary focus is self-defense with the use of firearms and other non-lethal weapons. I'm not really a hands combat guy. I mean, I know some things, but that's not my forte. I've been doing it for 40 plus years, and I travel all over the country teaching police officers how to be firearms instructors and teaching civilians personal safety and firearm use. At the rallies, we always do a camper defense class and a personal safety class. Uh we sometimes demonstrate pepper spray and bear spray, how to use bear spray. I talk about pros and cons of having different tools, and we also talk about um how to keep out of trouble in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

So when I was growing up, I thought I was going to be a flight attendant, and then I realized I'm I'm not really good in hospitality. So that's not what I ended up doing. But is this something, this drive that you have about helping people stay safe? Is it something that you remember from a very young age?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Oh, yes. Yeah. So my reason for becoming a police officer was when I was 13. A big tornado came through Topeka, Kansas, and my dad's best friend, who I thought was a just a great guy, uh, the police officer with Topeka, he came over and asked us uh my dad to come over and bring his generator to a school to make a Red Cross shelter. I was 13 at the time, and he asked me if I wanted to go along, so I did. And we powered up the school, and then I watched first responders bringing in all these injured people, uh, police, fire, and National Guard and EMS, and I made sandwiches and coffee for them all night long, and I said, I gotta do this. And since I like guns, police work is the one I chose.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

I don't do it. But military or police work, right? If you have an affinity for that, those are the two. Let's talk about staying safe, but let's start with some misconceptions. So, what would you see are some of the biggest misconceptions that people have about personal safety?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

It's not going to happen to me. Mm-hmm. Is the biggest thing that you'll see. People do not understand, they don't have to do anything wrong. They can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and if they're not mentally aware, they can put themselves in bad positions. People make bad choices, things that they will do. Uh one of the good ones we were talking before the meeting is I'm thinking, you know, people do Craig lists all the time. And you've got people who are meeting at your home. You don't know them, you don't know their intent, you don't know what they're doing. And can you put yourself in a vital position? Uh people come into your home you don't know, they're checking out things in your home, and they may decide to come back later whether you're there or not. So, I mean that's just one little thing right there. Uh, if you're gonna meet somebody that you don't know as a stranger, try to do it in a public place where other people are around. Uh it just makes good sense. And if it's a business transaction, a parking lot of a big uh shopping center or something like that where people are actually around is uh something that you might want to consider. Like, you know, sell a car to somebody, don't do it in your driveway. Because then they know where you live.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Yeah, I learned that from Michael. Um somebody's come over here, what? They're coming over, they're coming in, and I'm like, okay, we're we're not doing that, we're doing it a different way. I had a lot to learn, let's just say.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Do you want to tell my favorite story?

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Well, there's so many, I don't know which one is your favorite. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Um, we'd only been dating for like maybe a year, and we decided we were gonna go fly to Las Vegas um to to meet up with my mother, who she's never met. And we're in the line getting on the airplane, and she starts this conversation up with the guy behind us, and in that process, she used her full name, the school she worked at. She talked about her, you know, something about the what you know, the traffic and the route she took to get to work and how bad the traffic was. And I finally looked at her, I'm like, babe, what are you doing? I'm like, this guy has enough information now to completely track you down. And you don't you don't you don't even know his name. And she looked at me and she goes, What do you mean? I was like, Yeah, you can tell one of us came from a law enforcement family and one of them one of us didn't.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

But you've gotten much better since then.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Thank you. I I think I've gotten much better as well. When we talk about personal safety, it's particularly like uh so I have a a daughter, she's in her mid-20s. I used to tell her when she was in high school, be around it, be aware of your surroundings, know where the exit door is. And people use the term situational awareness. Correct. What does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

It means you're just you're aware of the s when you sit around your surroundings, is you're just paying attention to what is around you. So many people um are in what we call conditioned white. And there's four different color codes that we use. And I didn't invent these, these are a design by name, man named Jeff Cooper, who was kind of one of my early instructors, and these are taught worldwide, and they're they're accepted as being the standard of which we train situational awareness. So conditioned white is a state of unawareness. You're not paying attention to what's going on around you. Uh, we need to be in conditioned white at times, sleeping. Obviously, you're gonna be there. In your home, you should be there, even though I'm more in conditioned yellow at home, because if I hear a car drive around the neighborhood or I hear the same engine more than once drive by, then I'm up wondering what's going on. Um, if I hear an engine running in front of the house, I'm up looking why? Why is this going on? But conditioned white is in a state of unawareness. Uh, a good example is you're driving down the street, you stop at a traffic light, and you're thinking about the day, everything easier, what's been gone good or what's gone bad, thinking about, oh, I gotta when I'm gonna have a fight with my husband, or I had a great day, or whatever you're thinking about, and you're not paying attention to around it, and you look over, and there's a friend who's been honking and waving at you right next to you. That could just as easily have been somebody you accidentally cut off as a gun pointed at you. So just being aware of your surroundings. Anytime you're out of your house, you need to be in what we call condition yellow, which is simply a relaxed state of awareness. You're simply aware around it. You see traffic. You're driving down the road, you see traffic, you look up ahead, you see the traffic is stopped. Okay, why is it stopped? And what's going on? Do I need to start slowing down now? Again, this is just basic situational awareness that a lot of people don't. I mean, think of how many accidents happen on the freeways because people are not paying attention to the traffic ahead of them. So that's just one. Um, you don't see people that are potentially dangerous to you, they're keeping an eye on you. And good example, you get a lady walking down the street, reading her cell phone. She's focused on the cell phone, not paying attention. And somebody comes in behind her, either grabs her, grabs her purse, grabs her phone, knocks her down, whatever. She had no awareness of what was going on around her because she's so focused on what she was doing, versus it being that condition white. And then there's condition orange, which is a specific alert. You see something that just doesn't look right. Um, it could be traffic ahead of you that has slowed down and you're wondering why it slowed down, and then you start slowing down beforehand because you're pre-predicting that you're going to have to slow down, versus not paying attention to what you're driving is, come up on brake lights and all of a sudden run into people. And freeways, let me think about how many accidents happen on freeways because people are driving and they don't pay attention to what's going on up in front of them. That's one. Walking down the street, you see four little gangbangers standing on a corner, and all of a sudden they come off the wall and start walking a parallel course to intercept you. Then you gotta make some options. Okay, what do I want to do? Maybe I'll cross the street the other side. Maybe that's all they're doing is cross the street. They could care less about you. Maybe you turn around, stop, turn around and walk the other direction. There's just options there. If you see them and they start walking, you start walking across the street and they turn the same direction, then you go to specific alert or condition red. Or you're starting to look as to what your plan of action is going to be of how you're going to deal with this situation. Whether you're going to start yelling at them, you're going to try to yell for help, you're going to see if they're doing something that may be precarious, but you're starting to make a plan to set what we refer to as a mental trigger of when you are going to take action against them and try to do what you have to do to save yourself or protect yourself.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So I have an experience, and I'm not, I think it it feels like to me that these can ro flow like in a continuum, right? If you're out in public and you're in yellow, like so here's my example. I was by myself at a hotel somewhere. I guess I got lucky because I was paying attention this time. This was before you taught me to really be careful about what's going on around me. One of the things I used to always do and still do when I'm by myself traveling is I won't get into an elevator that has one man or two men or three men. I will choose the next elevator.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

And in this case, I got on the elevator and then one guy got on the elevator next to me. And I think like my intuition probably just went from like straight from orange to red because in that moment I was like from yellow to orange. Yes. And then I was like, this doesn't feel safe, and I left. Like I waited for the door to kind of and I made sure that I could get off of the elevator, but it would close. So like I had an exit point. But I did it really fast because it happened so quickly.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Something you could do in that line, you say, Oh, I forgot something, and walk out. So it doesn't look like you're fearful of him, that you're just you I need to go out and find something. That's like so he doesn't, you know, come after you and think that they're, you know, something or oh, I need to say my husband, or something, something that line that will then give them a clue that you don't need to bother following me. People look like victims. There have been many studies done, and they will show pictures of people walking down the street, and they will ask these people who have been in there either for rape, homicide, robbery, whatever, who would you pick and choose? And it's always the people who are looking at a newspaper, walking down the street with their head down. Just they look like victims because they're not paying attention to themselves. And I've my slide presentation I do for the uh Sue Weapon class we do for Arizona, I've got one of my instructors, she's walking down reading a book, and she goes by this guy who's leaning up against the wall with a very huge knife on. In the picture, she has an unawareness of what's going on, and as soon as she goes by, a guy comes out with a knife and comes at her. So in the same situation, she sees him, and now she starts across the street, and she's mentally aware of what's going on, and then he comes off the wall, starts to do an intercept course for her, and she could have options there, like I said, turning around, walking the other direction, whatever, but he's coming towards her. Then pretty soon he pulls a knife, so then she goes to condition red and it goes on. So you you set up these scenarios, and we'll talk about what-if situations and uh visualization, which is an important thing that we need to follow through.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

So our hope is that our listeners, next time they're leaving their home, they're thinking about what you are talking about and maybe raising their situational awareness, which sounds like kind of being aware of warning signs. And for you, like you can just kind of tick those off, right? People across the street kind of walking towards somebody. What are some maybe warning signs that people miss frequently?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

People who will not make eye contact with you can be, I would consider that potentially dangerous. Um, they don't want to make ontack. You make eye contact with them, that makes it personal. Um, you can, if you feel that somebody is following you, and it happened here with one of our rally attendees, she thought somebody was following her at Walmart. Every time she was in an aisle, he was in the aisle, she would purposely go down one aisle, then turn you turn around and go back in the other aisle, and the guy was back in that same aisle. She finally just looked at him and says, What do you want? Just screamed at him, what do you want? Leave me alone. And the guy looked at her, you're crazy, and rocks away from her. Now, whether he met evil intent or not, who cares? It's not a friend, doesn't know you, but yeah, you potentially stopped the situation. It could have happened because you were aware of him. You made every other people aware of him by your communications and by acting that way. I'd say if you act crazy, nobody bothers you except if you're a police officer. You gotta be bothered if you're, you know, police officers got to bother crazy people.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

That reminded me of another. I think just as a as a woman, I think I tend to be a little, I'm not saying that you're not aware, but I feel like women have to have a heightened sense. I would suggest that. And I had the same thing at the grocery store. This guy was the same, just what you were talking about. What I chose to do is when I checked out, he was like two people behind me in the checkout lane. So I told the checker, I said, I need someone to walk me to my vehicle.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Good cool.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

And so the bagger kid, and he said, I'm gonna walk you to your vehicle. And and I so I sort of turned this way and I said, Can I get a manager? Because I feel like the person, two people behind me, is following me. And they were like, Absolutely. And they had two people then, two men came and walked me all the way to my car.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Yeah, well, I gave them the description of what he looked like, right? Um, so that they could go back and uh find him. And I remember they called me back and they said, Yeah, we found him. He was roaming around the store just following women, and we had him trespassed.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Well, awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

So yeah, I guess I've had more of these experiences than I remember.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And the thing is, you don't know that your actions may have saved somebody else because you took the action to actually report it, let people know that something was not didn't feel right, and the management took it seriously and dealt with it. Because there are a lot of predators out there, and they they will take into account. I mean, how many kids are kidnapped actually in stores, picked up and carried off in stores? Uh happens all the time, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

What I hear sometimes is people say, Well, I trust people and I don't want to live in fear. So how do we balance that situational awareness and hopefully prevention and it versus the people are like, well, I'm not gonna live my life in fear and anxiety all the time because there's there's a difference. They're definitely not the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

I'm not in fear and I'm not anxious anxious at all. I mean, I've it's just a it's just a simple state of I know first off that there are people out there who will do you harm if you give them the opportunity. Uh I would like to think that we're all nice and friendly, but if that was the case, then it wouldn't be them all the murders around the world. It wouldn't be all the kidnappings, all the child abuse, and everything that goes on. There are evil people out there, and we need to accept that fact. Doesn't mean we live in fear, it just means you're just blindly aware of what's going on around you so you don't put yourselves in these bad positions. Pulling into a gas station with a group of 20 people, uh kids that are out, you know, in the parking lot and getting out by yourself as a lady is probably not a smart move at two o'clock in the morning. Uh same token, you look at some homeless folks that are sitting on there. Again, you really want to put yourself in a position of getting out of the car and possibly being accosted by them. When there's another place, you go across the street so you can get gas. Um there's been a gas station I pulled into and I went, nope, not here. And I'll drive away and I'll go find gas somewhere else. So you don't let yourself get down to empty, so you can do that.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

That's about preparing, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

One question I have is I I always think about a story of my grandfather told me, and I was in the vehicles, I remember part of the story. We were driving along, it was storming, and he there was a there was a man walking down the road, and my grandfather drove right past him and said, I wish things were different today. And I'm like, What do you mean? And he goes, Ten years ago, twenty years ago, I would have never let a man stand in the rain like that. I would have helped him out. But today I can't do it. So do you think things have gotten worse over time, or are we just more aware now? I think we're more aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

I think this it's always been the same. I don't know that there's any more um probably more, I guess, the child molestation and the kidnapping and the child predators and all that, mainly because of online stuff, but we're more aware of it because of online, because everything that happens is brought out um on the news media. So even the little things seem to be pop up and become a big story. So I think it's just more of there's more of it. We just are more willing. More aware of it. Yeah. Now, would would I stop in somebody's in the rain? Potentially. I could. I'd depend on circumstances. I would kind of weigh it out. I'd find out first of all, I'd get out, would let them get my car right away, I'd find out what you know, what do you need, what do you want, and and weigh the situation as to what they're saying. You can be tricked. I mean, there's no question about it. People, some of these con artists, that's why they're why they're con artists, is because they're really good at what they do. And when if you were to get some psychopath, yeah, he could act very friendly. I mean, Ted Bundy was a very friendly guy with ladies, they all liked him until he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

So Yeah, I remember his comment to me on that was he goes, the reason that he didn't stop is I was in the car.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

And I was, I think, nine.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, that makes sense. So that's that'd be something that'd be if Stephanie was in the car with me, I probably wouldn't stop.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Well, and he was law enforcement. Well, law enforcement at the time.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

He was law enforcement, yep.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yeah. So that makes a lot of sense. When people are starting to become more aware and maybe considering carrying some type of personal protection. Let's start from like maybe a one being like pepper spray, or maybe there's even something that's a little bit easier to like, I would I would expect like um a gun to be like the highest level of personal protection. That's a massive. So what would you say to people who are like, this is really resonating with me? I'd like to start maybe carrying something that I can use for personal protection. Where would they start?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

You know, pepper spray is a really good one because it is legal in all 50 states. It is easily purchased, you can carry it easily with you. Uh most places do not ban it. There are places that say you can't have it, you know, sporting events and things like that. They'll take it away from you if they find it. Uh so there are places you can't go into. We refer to those as non-permissive environments. Um sometimes work won't allow you to have it, but if they don't know you have it, then it is what it is. So it's it's discrete, it's portable, it's economical, it's simple to use. It doesn't take a lot of training for it to make it work, but you do have to train, you have to practice with it, as you've seen in the demonstrations we've done here. If you don't know where to spray or how to spray it, it may not be effective. And you've got to be willing to use it, um, depending on when your situation there and understanding what you can and can't do within the laws of where you can use it. Those are important. The pepper spray is a good one. Really, your mental awareness and just not, again, not looking like that victim is what I would say is the first step. And by talking to somebody, making them aware that, hey, I see you, what do you want? Leave me alone, go away. That can go a long way to preventing stuff from happening because again, they're looking for easy targets. And if you are aware of them, make them aware, and again, if you've got other people around you and make other people aware that you're aware of him, that's going to make him uncomfortable and make him want to leave. Pepper sprays used when you actually have a confrontation where somebody's starting to get physical with you, uh, verbally trying to come at you, threatening you, stuff like this. Because if you spray people with pepper spray and you're not Justified in your actions, you're gonna commit a crime and you're gonna be arrested. Uh misdemeanor assault is usually what it'll come down to, uh depending on the circumstances, but you you need to have justification of why you're there, which is why you need to know some basic things on the laws. Again, you mentioned about people saying I don't want to be live in fear. That's not living in fear, that's just being good common sense because there's again, there's a lot of bad people out there. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are a lot of bad people. And if you don't, you know what, it's no nothing off me. I just don't hate seeing people become victims. They don't need to be.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yeah, Michael, what you will say frequently is um you will hear people say, Well, I have a right to do this. And then you'll you you'll say, Well, there's a difference between a right and like, is that a good decision?

SPEAKER_01 22:43

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

You know, like we'll talk about but particularly with driving, not necessarily with safety, but well, I have a right to go into that lane. Yeah, but should you have gone into that lane? Or I have a right to go jogging by myself as a female. Okay, but that's a lot different than should you?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Agree.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

And pay attention.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

I like to use the example of, you know, it's not illegal for you to wear for wear some very scantily clothing, have ten dollar bills hanging out on you, and walk down one of the major streets in a major city. But it's something you really want to do. Is it one you you want to put yourself into a position that could potentially get you hurt? I mean, there's areas in Phoenix, Arizona, which I'm from Arizona, obviously, that I wouldn't go into by myself. Uh and it's just I just wouldn't do it because it it it's not worth me putting myself in danger. It's especially not me worth putting a hassle of me having to use force against somebody when I didn't do it. And in 2020, when we did our we did a long trip, we did a four-month camping trip, and we went all over the West Coast. And during that time span is when all of the um violence was going on in Portland and Seattle. And we had wanted to go, Portland we didn't need to go to, but we did want to go to Seattle, and I made the concept decision, I said, we're not gonna go. And we purposely went a hundred miles around it just so I didn't get put in a position to have to use any force to stop somebody, even though I had a right to go to that town. I chose not to. And I think that's just common good common sense. There's a lot of reasons why people won't go to Mexico and because they feel like there's it's danger. I would say we we go to Mexico all the time and we go down to Cabo St. Lucas, and I guarantee you I'm safer in Cabo St. Lucas than I am in any major city in that stage downtown. Absolutely safer. So it's just a matter of where you know and perspective and all that.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Let's talk about children. And you know, we've talked talked a lot today about how we protect ourselves, and you know, most people have their own children or children around them. So how do we approach this conversation about safety and prevention with children and without having them be fearful?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Well, a good thing is to just explain to them that you shouldn't talk to strangers. And that stranger danger to classes that are taught at schools, etc., are a good a good guideline for that, of being careful of not knowing, going with somebody because they've asked you to help them find a puppy and tell them why. You know, tell them, you know, you don't explain why we don't, but that these this is why we don't want you to do this, because we don't want somebody to hurt you. And just making your kids educating them, make them will be aware, and tell them this is what mom and dad want you to do. And if something like this happens, you come and tell me about it, I'll go get you ice cream or something, some reward for them willing to not do that kind of activity. We'll talk again about mental plans and mental family preparedness and all that too as we as we get through this. So I got other other topics we'll get into on that.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah, I that is actually where I was going with that is how can families make these safety plans? We used to have one in the event of a fire, if we had a fire in the house. Okay. And then that's just one example. So yeah, uh let's talk about those family plans.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Um again, a lot of this comes down to decisions if you're going to have a weapon of some kind in a house, if you're gonna have a firearm. First off, if you're gonna say make the personal decision to get a firearm, please get training. You need to know what the laws are, you need to know when you can and can't shoot, you need to know where you can carry and where you can't, you need to know how to store the gun properly in your home so it doesn't become uh accessible to unauthorized hands. And then you need to have a fam plan for your family. Um for your family. And I use the word blue because nobody says the word blue excitedly. And if you start yelling blue, blue, blue, blue, you tell your kids we want you to go hide under the bed, hide in the closet, and stay there no matter what you hear until mom and dad comes and gets you. And then if you if you do that, we'll get ice cream. And then practice it and yell blue, blue, blue, blue, and then start yelling and screaming and see if the kids follow through with it. And if they don't, then just lean the corrective action is what needs to be done. And if they do it right, keep your promise, go get them ice cream. But then you don't have to worry about your kids getting in the middle of something. If somebody breaks in your home, for example, you don't want your child to step out of the bedroom because they hear something between you and a bad guy. So that was the reason why we came up with a color code. Also have a mental plan with your family as to what you want them to do should something go on. Stephanie knows that if I tell her you need to leave now, this is not the time for why? You know, I don't want to. What's going on? You know, don't get involved.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Women don't do that. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Don't get involved. And this is time for her just to go and let me do what I need to do, which is mainly get her safety. My family comes first. I will get my family out, and then I will go and help other people if I can. And I've been retired for 26 years. So I'm not a police officer anymore, and I haven't been, but I'm still not going to let people actively hurt other people if I can do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, I'm so glad to hear you say that because it makes a ton of sense to begin with, but also makes me think of we need to have a better plan for when questions come up. I and this is regarding a hike we went on that I'll never forget, where we're in Glacier National Park, and we accidentally got face to face with a moose. It was pretty aggressive location. We're backing away, but there wasn't a whole lot of room to back up. And I looked at her and said, hand me the bear spray. Instead of just handing me the bear spray, she goes, Well, it's not a bear. And she starts this conversation, and I was like, Are you kidding me? So, well, I carry my own bear spray now, and um so we don't have to have that conversation. But it's to your point, you know, you you you have to practice these things, you have to understand, because now's not the time for discussion, now's the time for action.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

That's what pre-planning is about.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

So you you you make this pre-plan with your family, occasionally practice it. It's not a bad thing to practice, just like practice it with your fire extinguisher or any other tool you use. Practice your plan to see if it works. Um, and I mean your kids are grown, from my understanding, right? So you don't have your kids in home anymore. But that would be a recommendation I would do to folks is uh have their kids have a plan of what they want to do and explain to your wife that she needs to get the children out. Now, again, Michael's not a police officer, he's not going to actively go. You all should leave. That's not your responsibility, not your job. You all should leave and get out of the area and go help people. Being who I am, I'm just one of those ones. I'm gonna probably, if I can help, I'll help. But my family comes first, I will protect my wife and family before I do anything else.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah, you're the go-towards guy, not the go away from guy. Exactly. I can tell that. So you talked a lot about personal safety, situational awareness, um, personal safety devices. So where do people start? What would you so we would love for people to listen to this and write down like three next steps.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

What would they focus on?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Well, we would we're talking about pepper spray or OC, uh, which is uh the the typical self-defense spray that folks have. There are basically three different types. I usually recommend for most people outside the home to have a spray or a stream versus a fog or uh foam because it's gets the easiest to hit. It is not as um cross-contaminant as others. The the the the foggers, like bear spray, they're foggers, are good for an area, but the wind can carry them easily, or a stream is more isolated to be able to hit somebody individually. And foam is just what it says, it's foam and it hits in the face. There's no cross-contamination. However, it takes longer to take effect. And so this the intermediate in there is the streams. And a good quality one, if I'm gonna recommend any products, uh, is palm, POM, and then Sabre Red. Those are two very good products uh that I highly recommend. I've used them. Uh, I'm an instructor on them. I have been sprayed by both of them. They're not fun. I was gonna say that's a fun day. Uh when you get recertified every time. Several days. Several days. Well, you just you learn how to deal with it and uh you know how to wash it off. So it's it's one of those things that you as an instructor, you have to learn how to be sprayed with it. And for police officers, we spray them with with pepper spray because they need to know how to fight through it. Because if they get sprayed by somebody, which we have seen recently in all the urban urefts that we've had, that officers are being sprayed in the face with bear spray and pepper spray, that they can fight their way through the situation, which people can, and that's the end they need to understand, is yes, pepper spray is good, but it can fail. It's about 70% reliable. It's more reliable for people who are unaware and unprepared to be sprayed with it because it affects them. But you've got a hardened criminal uh who's been around the block and you spray him with it. Two of my officers sprayed a guy under domestic violence, and he was an ex-con. It kind of faces you got you got a cheeseburger with that, and that was the fight was on, the physical fight was on after that because the total rate didn't work. So those are some things with it. Um, impact weapons can be useful, but again, it requires training to know how to make them work effectively for it. I'm a big fan of flashlights as a personal protection tool uh for night use because blinding somebody you can have a big technical advantage if you're in a dark area and you can blind somebody with a really bright light, that gives you about five to ten seconds to do something else to try to get yourself away from the area or take other action against that person. Um, the use of light is a very effective tool. And then again, you go with firearms, they're fine, they're a good tool. There's nothing better out there when someone is trying to kill you, but understanding that you're only justifying lethal force when someone is either trying to kill you or cause serious bodily injury to you or others, and that is it. And you must do it within the confines of the laws of the state that you live in, and every state is different because it's legal in one state does not mean what you do the next state is going to be legal. Uh, same with the types of guns you get. Um, there are some states that don't let you have certain types of guns or ammunition, et cetera. So you need to know your laws and you need to know, learn how to use them effectively. And again, it doesn't take a lot of money to do this, but you do need to go get some formal training from somebody who knows what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

I really like the idea of a flashlight. That's something that somebody who's listening to, if you're at home, can just go find your flashlight right now, a lot, make sure they work, right? As long as we get our flashlights and they don't work with us. Make sure we understand my documentary.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Just a flashlight. I wouldn't go out and buy a uh Walmart special. Uh you can buy a flashlight, which is called a mag light. Uh it was a police flashlight for years and years and years. It was an industry standard. It's a solid aluminum flashlight. It's legal in all 50 states. It has a fairly decent beam to it, but it's not really super bright. But it is a good impact weapon that can be used if you want to strike somebody with it. Uh again, being justified in your actions of where you strike them, arms, legs, etc., if they are actively violently trying to get you, then you go to the head, neck, uh, face area. But those areas are left-side because hitting somebody on that side of the head with that flashlight, you're likely going to cause serious injury to them. And if you're justified, fine. But if you're not, if you misread the situation, or you let emotions get involved, or you're the one who is the aggressor, or you've become angry and let your emotions do it, then you'll be in trouble. So yeah, heck, yeah. But I'm talking about a small, super bright tactical flashlight. Most law enforcement use, or not overly expensive. You can buy one for about 45, 50 bucks, and you turn it in somebody's eyes, they're not going to be able to look at you. And if it's darkness, they're certainly not going to see you, and then you can do whatever you you as I say, you could own them if you knew how to do that. Because they're not going to be able to respond to you.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

That's a great tip. I I think I know this flashlight he's talking about. I believe we had it mounted next to our front door.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

That's correct. Seeming very familiar. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Yeah, I know. So if people want to learn more about personal safety, are are there websites that you recommend that people go to or resources?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

There's several good companies, depending on what you want to do with it. Um, I have a lot of friends who do training in individual companies that do it. Uh but the NRA has two good pro National Rifle Association has two good programs of personal protection in the home and personal protection out of the home. And they have some good guidelines. Some of the stuff we're talking about here, each individual state has probably instructors who do self-defense classes and consume weapon classes. A lot of recommendation you go to is go to your local police department and ask about it. Uh ask, hey, is there anybody out there you know of that you recommend that can do, you know, a consume weapon class or do a personal protection class, um, et cetera? I mean, it's because people don't want to travel to this, they don't want to spend a lot of money doing it. Because I mean, there are some of us who do. I've traveled all over the country to go to classes. However, most people, that is not what they're concerned with. And then you said they don't want to live that way. I understand that. So, but it was a simple little thing of going to your police department and checking to see if you know, hey, is there a gun shop around here? Is there some instructors around here? Is there any police officers around here who does training? You can get it locally and probably get it for a very reasonable price at your convenience, and it'll just make you a better person. You may never have to use it, which is what we don't want. We don't want anybody ever have to use it, but it's just something you can do with that.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

And how can people get in contact with you or learn more about your business?

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Okay. Um I no longer have a website. Most of my uh classes now are through government agencies and contract work. Um, I've kind of winded down my training after um 45 years of it. But I'm still, I say, I'm still doing stuff. I do private work uh and private classes uh in Arizona. I just came back from a class that I do up in uh Devil's Tower, Wyoming, up at the northeast corner of Wyoming, where we do all kinds of training. We do uh basic defense class that gets you qualified to get a permit in Arizona, Wyoming, and Florida, uh, and some other states if you wish to do utilize it. Then we do a what I call personal check at home defense today, where we set up scenarios and let you see how you respond to the various scenarios that we develop for you, whether it's an armed robbery, an ATM, whether it is a guy's attacking you in a park. Um, we just did one that was a very good one that I just really developed. And it was goes, do you have the skills? Because a lot of folks will get a concealed weapon permit, but if they're forced into a real situation where they may have to shoot it, then they have the actual skill to be able to do that. And we set up some very interesting scenario targets that allowed them to decide, okay, how am I if I'm gonna shoot this guy, where am I gonna shoot this guy, and what angles I need to shoot him, because there were people in behind him, there were people in front of them, and yet if they didn't take action, either their family members or their friends in that area would be would be injured. So do you have the skills to deal with that? And it was enlightening for a lot of people. And I was very happy with the way that came out.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

That really stuck with me. It's been several years since we've done our concealed weapons permit class. Um, fortunately, I had a principal whose husband was oversaw, he worked for the sheriff's department and he did the concealed weapons courses. So we had a a good person to go to. And I remember very specifically, it was one of the very first things he said. Well, first he came in and he had like looked just like a normal jacket and a normal vest and a table like here, and then he just started taking out weapons. And I don't know, I think he ended up with like 22 different weapons that he was carrying on himself.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

I don't understand how he had that on anymore.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

You would never know.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I it was the same thing on our concealed carry classes. I've done the same thing. That's crazy. And you, you know, people who also have guns can open carry. A lot of states have open carry, Arizona's one of them. It is not uncommon to see somebody in a Walmart or a grocery store with a gun on. It's not uncommon to see somebody in the line in a bank with a gun on their hip, and nobody looks twice unless they're from out of state and they scream and yell about it. Um but I am I'm a well, I think that's a good right, and people can do it certainly, and I won't say that's bad. I know I won't because I don't want people to know that I have one until I need to let them know I have one. So I'm not a fan of going out personally and telling people that, hey, I'm wearing a gun, I'm wanting to be incognito, I want to be Mr. Gray Man, not wear stuff that attracts attention to me. Um, like because that would be something that if I was a bad guy and I went into a store and I saw a guy with a gun, well, that's the first person I would deal with if I was going to do some ill intent. So I have nothing against open carry, guys. Certainly as your constitutional right, and I fully respect that. I just choose not to do it myself.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

That's interesting because I've I've I've I've done a lot of research on both sides of this debate. Sure. And so there's some I actually agree more with what you're saying. You know, you know, be behind the scenes, don't attract attention. I've seen people even in Denver that when people are open carrying, you can hear them whispering as they go by. And I've even seen law enforcement officers show up and the person said, Well, they were brandishing a weapon when in reality it was just sitting on their on their belt. And Colour is an illegal open carry. Sure. And so, but then the other side of it is, is it a deterrent? You know, that's the other side of that argument, is you know, you talk about being aware and not being a victim. Now, is is open carry a way to be able to express that?

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yes. And I I've seen most open carry folks who have a good situation awareness. Look, look, every police officer in uniform is an open carry person. Well, they're mainly aware of what's going on around them. I mean, there's bad guys who are looking at them. But when you've got the person who's carrying the gun and he has absolutely no idea of what's going on around him, he doesn't know anybody around him, he does, you know, does not pay attention to people who are walking behind him and like that, that's opening up to be where your gun is not going to be an asset to you, it's going to be a liability. Someone's going to take it from you. Exactly, potentially take it from you. Or like I said, or shoot you to get to your gun if they're if they mean ill intent. So if you've got good situational awareness, then yeah, fine, carry your gun open. I don't care. Doesn't matter me at all. I I like the element of surprise. That's my personal thing. Um, but they take again other people and got our decisions, and that's fine. Yeah. Do what you gotta do.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Is there anything that you wanted to share that we didn't give you an opportunity to speak about when it comes to personal safety?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Personal safety is an individual choice that you want to make. And that you're comment about people don't want to live in fear. I trust people. Being naive is not going to help you. And if you so choose to do so, then you have to do so at your own peril. But what we find is when people do that and then they become a victim, then they yell, scream, and complain that nobody nobody did anything about it, when they probably could have done something in the first place. The choices of your how you want to live your lifestyle, how you want to carry your clothes, where you want to go. I mean, all that stuff is individual. Just be aware of what you're doing with it if you don't want to be that victim. Um, there is a I mentioned one other class that the NRA teaches. It's called Refuse to be a Victim. And it's geared towards primarily women, but it's also good for men. But it's not how to shoot people. It's not, it's, you know, everybody thinks the NRA is all about shooting people. It's not. Uh, in this particular case, it is how just those little prevention things we talked about. One thing you mentioned about being at the airport and the line and talking. When you go up, don't have your complete life history on the tag on your bag. It says your name, telephone number, and address. And, you know, you go up to the counter and say, Yeah, we're gonna be on a three-week trip in Europe. And this guy's making note of, you know, or taking a cell phone picture of your bag tag and then goes to your house and decides to have a good time because he knows you're not gonna be home for three weeks. I mean, that's one of the things that they do that refuse to be in a victim class. They talk about that. So know your laws, your states, know what you can do and can't do, uh, become educated. And that's the big thing, becoming educated on it. All kinds of options out there from less lethal tools to um lethal force. Just got to decide what works for you. Um, one we didn't talk about that. I was gonna mention is there's a device called uh Berna and is a basically a pepper spray or pepper powder launcher. Think of it as a paint gun that you can carry for personal protection that uh offers you the ability to hit somebody at distance with it that you can't do with pepper spray. Pepper spray is good for about 10 feet on a non-windy day. Uh in a windy day, you're looking about six feet. Uh but the burnout type systems, which are legal in all 50 states, although there are some restrictions in various states around the country, so you need to know what the laws are. You can carry one of these, an option of carrying a gun. It is not going to replace a gun. It is a less lethal, and if somebody wants to fight through it, they can. But it's more for those people who are just the opportunist versus the determined attackers. A determined attacker, you're going to have to deal with violently and deal with the situation. And we see this with police officers all the time. If they've got a violent attacker, we're restricted on what we can and can't do. Lethal force, we have to escalate it to what they escalated. And sometimes that requires us to, you know, use the force that we wouldn't want it to, but you know, if they force it upon us, then we will. So and the same with individuals, but that that burn a gun gives you another option. And um, it's available. It's being advertised now nationwide, and again, I'm an instructor on it, and I think it's a good tool, another one of those tools, the toolbox. I believe in having multiple tools. I've got my flashlight, I got my OC, I have my firearm, and so I have a variety of, and I have my cell phone and I have my common sense of that I'm not gonna put myself in positions of where something, if I see something doesn't look right, I'm not gonna put myself in that situation. I may back away and see if it's gonna develop in anything, but I'm not gonna put myself in those situations. And I and my wife is very much the same way. She's gotten much better by meeting us, uh, too, aware of what's going on around her. She goes, I saw that guy. I said, Okay, that's good. You know, because it it just you just learn what doesn't look right. If it doesn't look right, trust your instincts. Trust your instincts. That something bothered me about this, trust it. Don't ignore it. And if it doesn't really be nothing, okay, who cares?

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Well, this has been great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Okay, glad it's a little more informal competition. Um, I was gonna mention you get a hold of me, you mentioned that. Uh if they want to contact me, reference training at martfricky. I'm not back up. I'm sorry, AFTT17 at msn.com. Aft17 at msn.com. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

All right, excellent. Well, thank you very much for joining us today. This was this has been a great conversation. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

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