SPEAKER_00 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Today we're joined by someone bringing a fresh investigative lens to a case that has carried unanswered questions for decades. Steve Jelinsky, a private investigator currently working on the disappearance of Deanna Merrifield, joins us to discuss the complexities of revisiting a case that began in the early 90s when Deanna disappeared from Colleen, Texas. In this conversation, we'll talk about what it means to take on a long-term missing persons case, the challenges of investigating after so many years, and the areas of this case that continue to raise questions. Steve will share insights into the investigative process, what details matter most in cold and missing persons cases, and why continuing to seek answers for Deanna remains so important. Cases like Deanna's remind us that time does not lessen the need for truth. Behind every file is a person, a family, and a loved one still searching for answers. Steve, thank you for joining us and for the work you're doing to help bring renewed attention to Deanna's story. And welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Thanks, Elisa. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate you having me on.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

And before we get into Deanna's case, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your background and what drew you to investigative work?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Absolutely. So my most of my professional career and experience has been in a large corporate environment, started in technology, eventually uh you know worked into an area of security, cybersecurity, and again, had spent most of the time working in that space with the intention of at some point being able to lever those skills and be able to bring that outside of the corporate environment. So I had planned that for some time and was fortunate enough to be able to, you know, kind of get out of that environment early enough, uh, start up an investigation agency and really get a sense of the landscape and you know how much to focus on a missing person's on the missing person's space and really through that process decided that that has to be the sole focus. Uh there's just so much need in that space and so much need to specialize and to be able to go go really deep to be effective with it.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I really like that connection. Uh Michael was in cybersecurity for a very long time. And I don't know, did you ever think about using those skills to go into investigative work?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I haven't. And so um the I think this interview is gonna probably encourage me to, Steve, to call you offline and figure out how you made that transition. Because yeah, I was the director of cybersecurity for a company for quite some time. And so it's something I'm super familiar with, both at the system administrative level as well as the network level.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Great. Yeah, I absolutely looked very much looked forward to it. And you know, one thing that I found with that, you know, still connected with a lot of former colleagues who, and some of them who volunteer their time, have a passion in this space as well. You know, I think part of it is the you know, just the structure of that, you know, particular discipline, but also the mindset of being able to get in, solve problems, you know, take it apart piece by piece, the systems thinking, and then you know, being able to bring that together, you know, in this case with some, you know, case with Deanna's that's 36 years old, almost 36 years old, and uh be able to look at the you know the entire timeline of it while also bringing new capabilities, new technologies, new, you know, new connections that we can see now that were not available at that time. And I think that's really you know part of what drives a lot of people to get involved in this space as well and bring those skills in.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

It's interesting you said that too, because one of the things that you know, even my new job, um a new-ish job, I shouldn't call it a new job anymore, um, I'm a data architect. And so I've had to really hone my skills on, you know, data analytics, um, data architecture, obviously. And then it's actually led to me to build a number of, you know, AI agents that helps us with our investigations with this podcast. And so it's it's been, I've been bringing this together without realizing I've been bringing it together over the last year. So it's it's been fascinating. It's also been really um, really helpful for what we're trying to do. I'll bet that that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

As we have um been on this journey and we've talked to several different people in different spaces, but related to um true crime and crime, something that frequently happens to us is we'll talk to somebody like we talked to some uh dive organizations who search for missing vehicles, and we're always like, oh, why didn't I, why wasn't that my well, that wasn't my career. I wanted that to be my career. And by now I'm seeing the connection that you're discussing that you actually already have, Michael, a skill set, and maybe like that, the big ooh can actually happen this time for us, which is pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah, the comment that she's she's you know not saying is there's been a number of times where we're having these conversations, and you know, at the end of it, I go, Wow, I want to kill my guidance counselor. Um, because I probably would have made a few choices differently. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Well, the nice thing is you're here now. You you guys have both gone down a very, you know, interesting area that helps from a different angle and lots of other doors you can open through this as well. So I think that's that's you know fantastic that you're you've taken that step as well and put yourself there.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, we've taken the initiative to do this. So this this sounds great. Thank you for sharing all that and a little bit about your background. Um, so tell us about your journey with Deanna's case. What made you decide first just to get started with supporting her case and her family?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Yeah, absolutely. So, uh Alisa, my initial engagement was through uh a local law firm and private investigation agency that had taken on the case uh on a pro bono basis and asked me to, you know, join the team as an advisor, as a cons collaborator on it. And so I did. I was interested in it. I did. And probably about you know, a month, month and a half into it, it became pretty clear to me that it was gonna be it was gonna be more effective for me to just kind of take the lead on it, uh, be able to drive it. And that wasn't a reflection of you know really high-quality people that were involved on the other side. It's just a lot of times larger firms that you know have good intentions of getting involved on a pro bono basis have, you know, other priorities, uh cases that are you know for-profit that kind of take the attention away from it. So again, it was was uh happy to get involved initially that way, and then really glad, you know, this point, almost a year later, to have decided to just really take it on and and lead with it and collaborate with some of the other nonprofits that I'm involved with, you know, private investigations for the missing, uh being one of the key ones as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

So when you're approaching a case that's been unsolved for decades and you're coming to this case with a fresh set of eyes, where do you even begin?

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Oh, it's a great question. The most logical answer to that is of you know do it collecting everything that is available from you know the case file, if you're fortunate enough to be able to get your your hands on that, all of the information, just really assembling that and doing a thorough case review. And in in this case, particularly you know, with with Deanna, uh you know, we have very fortunate circumstances. We've got a great partner within the Clean Police Department, the you know, the detective that has been putting his time into it, volunteering and uh collaborating as well. So the the dynamics are you know very, very positive and and set the stage for being able to have a comprehensive look at you know historically what's happened, have dialogue, and and really uh Lisa, you know, build a you know, go all the way back, review everything, and start to build out, you know, kind of the paths for the various theories while looking at you know all any kind of open items that weren't addressed, any you know, leads that maybe weren't as pursued, weren't pursued as far as they could have been at the time, that we can now take a step further, again, given new insights, connections, technology, uh, and the ability to you know do do deeper research and then kind of reassembling it, reassembling it with a you know a new structure, a new baseline, uh new strategy, and and then really executing on that with all of the players. So it's kind of kind of going back to the basics of all the way back, reviewing it and then putting it together and and uh you know creating a new plan that we can execute on and really have a strong bias for action around as well to make sure that we're you know progressing and prioritizing our time on on you know some of the most critical leads and tasks in the in the process of collecting intelligence and and analyzing it.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

So I have a question about how this functionally looks. And so I I know it doesn't look like this, but I I see like three by five cards with strings and pictures, and I know that's not how it looks like. So when you're talking about building the case, what does it look like to you? Like it's not three by five cards and strings. How do you do it?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Well, you know, you're you're not far off. I mean, it certainly could be three by five cards and strings, depending upon the the scope. Um, you know, because you're really you're you know, in the example you provided, that that might be feasible for the uh a case with the right scope where you could actually fit all of those entities on cards, on a board with the strings. You know, fortunately we have some you know better tools now that we're able to, you know, take that concept and bring that into a digital environment and use those tools to you know create create the connections and make all of that information much more discoverable so that we can have kind of the underlying data set, but then be able to really look at the picture, look at the connections, look at the pieces that you might normally miss with the naked eye with three by five cards, you know, and and strings attached with it. And uh, and again, that's been a you know a major area where advancements have occurred and that intelligence collection, the you know, specifically the analysis and kind of collating that information so that you can then turn around and act on those observations of those connections.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah, see, this is where my my my tech expert over here is probably like looking at me going, I know what this looks like. I need I have I work really well with the pattern or like something to function with. Um so that's why I was like, how do you work that out? So thank you for sharing that with me. That's super, super helpful.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Um, so as you're putting these pieces together, what have been some high points in your investigation um in trying to find out what happened to Deanna?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

I would say probably the the highest points have been seeing how much people are coming together, seeing the advocacy of her sister, Melissa, or you know, her other family members. And I'm not mentioning their names because I don't know that we have their permission to necessarily mention the others. I know Melissa's very active and I believe you spoke with her as well, but that just to see the advocacy of the family, to see how much they're showing up, how engaged they are, and really bringing the energy to it. So I'd say that's part of the part of the one highlight. The other is I'd say the optimism around seeing what has happened over the last 12 months. And and really, I believe this to be true. I believe that there's been more progress in the last 12 months than there probably had been in the previous, say, 34 years. And I and again, a lot of that, you know, to it uh mapping back to the engagement with the you know lead detective that's involved with this, uh, you know, renewed passion to get out there and uncover names, uncover connections, and bring that together to start to look for potential, you know, supporting kind of substraints on those theories that we can then go in further analyze, further work, do as many additional cycles as we need for collecting that intelligence and analyzing it. So long-winded answer, but I I would say it's the overall, overall energy, the progress over the last 12 months, and really feeling like we're at a spot right now where we're gonna continue to very aggressively make contact with any of those parties that may have been in the ecosystem and kind of the orbit that were, you know, for whatever reason previously um had not been interviewed, had not been uh anywhere engaged in in terms of providing details. So I'm really uh heartened by that. And I believe that we're going to see some positive results coming out of that.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Is part of that process you're going through, is do you kind of look at the case file and then you know try to identify areas that may have been under investigated or not considered?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah, absolutely. And uh, Michael, as part of that, you know, really looking at, you know, it's getting in and looking at every aspect of the case file, you know, what's known, what we can clearly, you know, kind of trace through and not find, you know, an answer in terms of whatever happened with a specific action for a follow-up. And and you know, the answer may be out there, but being able to get in and and really dig into that and then just you know, create the the plan, if you will, based off of where we need to go deeper. And of course, you know, part of the art with that science is figuring out, you know, where we can maximize and execute as much of it in parallel as possible so we're not single threading it. And and again, that's where I feel like you know, part of the different approach now is having the uh having really good partnership so that we can collaborate and parallel process across a number of these, you know, call it a thread for lack of a better word, and and really be able to track that down, move faster, move aggressively, and if we kick up some new intelligence on that, be able to act on it before some of that gets stale again.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Are you able to expand a little bit on some of the areas that you think may have been overlooked?

SPEAKER_02 15:20

You know, at this time, um given that it is, you know, an active case again, that's probably not an area that we want to go very deep into at this point in in terms of in terms of granular level of detail. What I will say though, uh Alisa, on that on that, uh you know, on that note, we know that Deanna was last seen July 22nd, 1990, in the early hours of the morning, around three o'clock in the morning, and we you know have multiple eyewitnesses that saw her last. So we have you know a general description of who she was seen leaving with, general description of the vehicle. And I believe that there is a lot of opportunity to get in there at that kind of that core of the incident and look a little broader in terms of what was happening around that area prior, you know, 24 or 72 hours and afterwards, and and you know, friends, neighbors, even you know, the parties that were present, being able to get in and really see what we can identify for information that was that had not been previously, you know, surfaced with some of the interviews. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, but but that is you know a key area that you know had been looked at before, but we know we definitely need to go back, are going back, and we're visiting all of that very aggressively.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

What really stood out to me there is that you talked about um this last sighting, but what you really said um is going before that, like what happened in the 48 hours and 24 hours before she was last seen, which I think is kind of an interesting and unique way to look at it. At least it's not a way I have thought about it. I always think about like we had talked with Doug McGregor, right? The geoprofiler. I think it was him that said, you know, the when the event happens, that's when you start, you know, thinking and investigating. And you're talking about going backwards from there a little bit, maybe to try to build, I don't know if the right word is story or profile, of the general description of the people and the vehicle. And can that those pieces of the puzzle be backtracked? I think that's what you're getting at, which I think is really well.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

And just to add a little more onto that, you're absolutely correct. To add a little more onto that, it's you know, it is backing up and it is broadening out to get a better understanding of actors. You know, who are the actors that were, you know, I call it is sometimes called the ecosystem or the orbit or the universe, the that anybody that had interactions or knowledge of that environment at that time, any of those insights are going to be critical for helping us put together uh you know better assessments of and ultimately identification of who were the actors that were then present at the moment of. And and you know, backing up and understanding also what was happening, you know, with family dynamics, friends, um, you know, environments in Kaleen. We know that obviously it's uh you know uh military-based town. And and being able to, you know, again, look at everything leading up to that within a certain range of time, I think I think it's a critical part of us being able to have a clearer lens as we start to look at what we thought we knew before.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because one of the things that I've always found fascinating when we talk to investigators is just to kind of add to what you were saying is, you know, a lot of investigators have talked about that when the event happens, that's not the beginning. That's you know, in some cases, that's almost the end of what we know. And that, you know, the investigation of what happened to several weeks to even to several, sometimes several months prior to the event becomes very important.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

And also, uh, you know, bearing in mind that this was 1990. And, you know, in many cases, we don't, you know, it's cold case. Uh it's 1990. We don't have a lot of, you know, if we were to look at something uh, you know, in the last five years uh and we're able to go back, there's a lot more, you know, signal intelligence and kind of digital footprint that we'd have access to now. So going back to 1990, uh having to really do a lot more you know research in terms of you know the link analysis between who knew who, when, how they knew them, what those relationships were like, and and kind of the sub-dynamics on all of those levels. And it kind of goes back to Lisa, you know, your point about the note cards and the strings. I mean, it is really a digital version of that of looking for the metadata, metadata that's connecting it. You know, what is something that by itself seems, may seem insignificant, may not seem like it's worth probing deeper on. But once we've got that metadata captured and five other pieces of information of how subjects or addresses or locations or events or all of those at the time were were happening, we may see patterns that are going to help us make observations that we can then act on. So I think it's all very critical. The good the big question is like how far, you know, it gets down to a level of practicality of how far can you go back and spend that time? And then, you know, what level of detail are you able to drop into? But it's definitely part of the strategy that we're using with this. I'm sorry, Michael, you were gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah, well, you said metadata, so now you've got my attention again because I thought I I work with metadata all day long. Um, but yeah, something that we we very often get into conversations about with people is, especially when we talk about these cold cases, even something as simple as, let's say, phone pings. Um, I I we very often talk about number one, you know, don't believe everything you see in the movies, that cellular phone pings, even today, are not incredibly accurate. You know, you can't pinpoint an exact location. You can, you know, triangulate a position. But then you go back to the 90s, well, not everyone carried around a cell phone all the time. And so having that level of trackability is just not there. And then you go even further back, you know, we we had a case where we were talking about, well, they had a bag phone. Well, if you know anything about a bag phone, number one, most people didn't carry it around. It usually left it in the car. And number two, they only turned it on where they're actively using it and then turned it off. It's not how we use our cell phones today. And so the type of data and tracking capabilities of that is just very different than what's available today. Oh absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, and if you even extend that thinking into the you know DMV records and you know the you know LPR data or the license plate, you know, reader data and just the technology that is c was kind of on the cusp of coming into being in nineteen ninety, including, you know, cell phones before they turned ubiquitous. So it's a whole different uh you know level of information. And and again, that metadata isn't something hanging hanging out there in a database that we can you know pluck off of cell phone ping to your point. It's more going to come through the discovery of again analyzing those links between entities, between addresses, between events, you know, digging deeper, having more conversations, and then you know, using the tools to actually aggregate those in with the analysis. So it's you know, pretty big hybrid on that going back further. Um, and to your point, you know, if we're talking about 2026 and we had the the the luxury of you know cell phone data coupled with you know uh GPS data at the moment of thing that can be very precise, you know, along with you know triangulation. So yeah, it's uh it is definitely a different game going back that far, but we're adjusting course and using the you know tools, techniques, and procedures that we have now to look at the data that was data and events that happened then and and uh bringing bringing that forward for analysis.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Oh, yeah. I mean, and you not you know this is a joke, of course, I'm gonna say, but you know, back in the 80s and 90s, the only people that seemed to be able to track anyone accurately is the student loan people. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, they seem to have no problem finding us.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Um, but that was unless you had a student loan, could I say that and the uh now you bring back memories given my age? That and the I forget the name of it, but you know, back when you used to get your music on cassette tapes and you'd you know, order it and they would sign you, you know, you'd get everything for free and then you'd get a bill in the mail and uh end up owning a couple hundred dollars for your music membership, uh, right? Well that was Columbia.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

There you go. Yeah. I probably still owe money to Columbia.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

I was thinking the IO. They might track you down with this additional metadata now, you know. You might be in their database.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Um so without sharing anything sensitive to the investigation, what aspects of Deanna's disappearance continue to stand out to you?

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Thinking, uh in terms of the you know, where we've got some of the borders on what we can discuss. Uh what I would say Elisa is, and I and I think you know, multiple family members agree with this statement, and the detective agrees with it, and you know, we've had many conversations, is given what we know about her personality uh you know, at that time, how unlikely uh it would have been for her to get into a vehicle with a complete stranger under with her own free will. So given that we know through the at least through the you know multiple eyewitness test uh observations and and you know testimony on that, that she, you know, showed up at you know her twin sister's you know, uh the trailer house that her twin sister was staying at, knocked on the window and you know, was seen leaving with these two guys, was you know, you know, effectively told, you know, told to go home at 3 o'clock in the morning. I think that I think that is a definitely something we find curious that will inform the parties that we're looking at, the theories that support, you know, what what would line up with that type of behavior pattern as far as her comfort of getting into a vehicle, showing up in a vehicle, obviously with with these individuals. Again, that's making some assumptions that she you know is under her own free will, but so far the you know, the information that we have supports that. So I think that that clearly back to your question is is something that stands out, that's significant. We won't we won't uh you know preclude other theories that there could, you know, it's very possible that she could have been uh you know gotten into a vehicle against her free will, but from a probability perspective, I think we're you know definitely leaning in the direction of of the logic of you know kind of her behavioral pattern at that time.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

And can you remind us, um, is it known if she got into this vehicle near that trailer or if she walked off and then was seen by someone else getting into a vehicle?

SPEAKER_02 26:29

What I can share with you right now is you know, we we do know that she got into the vehicle by the trailer house, you know, with the subjects that she arrived with. Well, we don't know, and we don't want to rule out that that that was the only encounter with somebody in a vehicle, you know, that evening or hours surrounding that prior or after it. So that if those pieces you know remain unanswered, uh, and that those are part of the investigation. Uh, but we do know, and it is, you know, uh, you know, public per you know the observations that were made, the interviews that you know she showed up at the house that night, you know, knock on the window and left with the subjects that she arrived with.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Something that um you've kind of been talking about throughout this is the importance of uh the behavioral aspect of this. And we do a really great job, I think, of asking those questions when we're supporting our families, when um someone is missing or there's an unsolved murder. Uh, so that really resonates with me. I think what is uh helping me to move my thinking along is what you talked about with not just looking at the behavior aspect of the person, but you use the word orbit. Uh what's what's going on around, like what's happening in the community at that time? And this conversation is really helping me um to have some different perspective and some different things to look at as we're supporting our families. Like I'm thinking specifically with Michael's uncle. I don't know that I've ever asked, like, what was happening in the community? Was there anything odd or unusual happening in the community in the month leading up to his murder? Like, I don't think I've ever asked that question. I we know we've said, did he demonstrate any unusual or odd behavior? But I don't know that we brought in the scope outside of the person. So I just want to thank you for like uh opening my eyes specifically to that, to those kinds of ideas.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

No, absolutely. And I think again, you said it very well. It's you know, it's it's really the the dynamics surrounding that event. Right. So we want to understand as much as we can, uh, especially, you know, if we're bringing it down to we know actors are involved, people, uh, you know, as actors, um, potentially bad actors, you know, potentially foul play. So as we take a broader look at as much as we can of what was happening, who was involved in that family dynamics, you know, uh environmentally around that area, we we run a much higher probability of being able to find something that will inform that.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Can you talk specifically about some of the biggest obstacles when you uh when we're approaching a case that is 20, 30, 40 years old?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I would say that normally uh one of the primary obstacles is just being able to, you know, Michael had asked the question I think early on of you know, how do you you know pull all of that together? How do you structure part perhaps you ask part of that as well? In in a lot of cases, and I think you two probably know this from you know your exposure on other cases, in in many situations, families or the you know, private investigators working with them are not able to access that information, or in many cases, even you know, the police departments may, you know, records get moved around, they get shuffled, information gets lost. So to the extent that that kind of degrades or compromises the overall information set that you're working with, is it's pretty hard to do an exhaustive case review if you don't have access to that information. And then, of course, you know, as decades pass and you know, the subjects and the context that were interviewed in, all of that information stales, you know, being able to go back and you know do the analysis on that, be able to do the con uh you know, contact the individuals, all of that to the extent that we can have you know great cooperation across all parties, you know, law enforcement, family, private investigators working together, that's where we have the best opportunity. Unfortunately, uh, you know, in many, many cases, there are you know procedural blocks on that from police departments or at a state level in terms of what records get released and and what we can have access to. But uh I do see progress being made on that front. And I and I do believe that you know the missing persons units or the police departments that have people focused on missing persons units, because in this case, a lot of those police departments, especially smaller ones, don't have the resources. They don't have missing persons unit dedicated. They certainly don't have a cold case unit, but they have you know cold cases that are stacking up and you know need assistance with that. And and you know, that's where I'm hopeful that we can, you know, in addition to making great progress and and finding answers for Deanna's case, I think there's also we have to constantly be looking at how can we you know partner together to drive some change on that procedural side of it so we kind of get to that point where it's you know the tide rises all ships with it. So we we're not doing this just one serial, you know, case after another. And uh I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic with the uh the players that I've engaged, the uh you know, the partners uh in this, and and and I think we're gonna I think that's what's gonna help us be successful with this in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

One thing I'm curious about is as you're going through this investigation and it's it's active with you now, um, what is your cadence when it comes to speaking to the family? What does that look like? It's frequent.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

It's uh, you know, it's it's really, you know, to be specific with it multiple times per week in the phase that we're in right now. And a lot of that is you know phase dependent as we're looking at, you know, case review and uncovering details and being able to have that kind of live flow of information and anything we can do to, you know, kind of keep additional time from passing in between those just allows us to move a lot faster. Now, of course, that's you know, that answer is going to be totally dependent upon resource availability, on you know, on any cold case as far as who's working with it, the resources that they have available. In this particular case, I'm yeah, I'm fortunate enough to be able to, you know, make the decision to dedicate uh you know a very serious amount of resources to it, focus on it, and you know, drawing on other other partners and some of the nonprofits that I work with as well uh for you know collaboration and and uh just moving things as forward as fast as we can.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yeah, the reason I ask is because one of the things that we see it's really challenging is it's very common whenever we pick up a new case ourselves and we start, you know, kind of you know developing the story. And one of the one of the very first things that we typically find, unfortunately, is law enforcement's not talking to these families. And so that's usually one of the first things that we try to kick start. And the way we do that is we call the family and said, you have to stop putting up with this. You know, you have to be noisy, you have to rock the boat, you've got to walk in, um, because the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And um, they're not possibly gonna care about your loved one more than you do. And that usually works. Um, and it's just it just I don't know, to me it's unfortunate that's not more procedural. No, I I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

I think that's sage advice, and that's you know, unfortunately what I've seen as well. Again, it's it's one of those things where it's uh understandable when you look at the resource constraints or the resource limitations. But to your point, you know, differentiating, I can understand it logically, but it's hard to justify it and hard to feel good about it when you know ultimately that's leading to cases getting colder, families not getting answers, things getting pushed out. So I think I think that's sage advice. And I think that also, you know, those actions and and as you know, more party, more people are able to do that, I think that puts the pressures, you know, where where they need to be politically to ensure that it's a priority, you know, from kind of from chief, deputy chief on down in the command structure and helping them prioritize resourcing decisions. So again, optimistic, but I I I think that you know, practically taking the steps that you mentioned are absolutely important at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

So I have um a two-parter that is related to public engagement. Um, so what kind of information could still make a difference in Deanna's case today? And what would you say to someone listening who might know something but has never spoken up?

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Yeah, so on park one, it's really anything. I I would say there's there's nothing that's too small that if it's, you know, friend, relative, or somebody that wasn't a friend or relative, but in that environment or knew somebody in that environment, in this case, that being, you know, Colleen at that time, you know, July 22nd, 1990, and before that, and after that, to have some insight to what was what did they know that was happening? Did they have some type of an inkling? Did they hear something? Did they hear a you know a rumor uh from a third party? Any of that is you know something that we can actually take as a lead, act on, research, try to connect the dots with it. So having them come forward and you know, being able to do that, you know, they can do it anonymously, they can contact us directly with it and we'll we'll treat it anonymously. All of that is very, very, very precious intelligence. And I would say not no detail on those leads is too small for us to understand. At least I'm not sure if I hit you had two parts of that. I'm not sure if I hit all the second part, but let me know if we need to go deeper.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah, I think, I think you did. I think it's the encouragement we have experienced this. Um, and one of the more recent uh unsolved murders that we have been supporting a family through is um this particular case um was closed within about a year of the homicide happening. And uh that was a little bit shocking to us with no arrests and and and nothing like that. But now that we're coming, we're bringing it back to the community, people are coming forward. I had a person call me and say, I don't know if this matters, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, we don't know what matters. It might, it might not, but thank you for putting it out there. And are you comfortable sharing it? Or would you like me to pass this message along? And this person passed along, and I know for a fact has been re-has been interviewed for the first time in relation to this case. Um, and it's because we're putting it out there, the family's partnering with us, and we're putting it into the that's great.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

That's I'd say that's the that's a uh perfect example of of you know kind of answering on your your point number two. Because let's let's be frank. I mean, we know that obviously the the answer is out there. Something happened that night that involved other individuals in other events and other activities, and we're going through the process to discover and connect and identify and you know do further analysis and connection. So any additional input that we have as far as parties that may have a little bit more insight in one area is gonna be very helpful. And we'll get there one way or another, but we'll get there faster with parties you know helping us by stepping up and and sharing what they know. And again, I know in a lot of cases there is, you know, it can be reluctance to not getting involved or feeling like they're gonna get you know drug into a uh you know a law enforcement action on something. And I think my message to those people would be just you know think about it, do the right thing, and know that by sharing that information, you're gonna help bring closure for the family, you're gonna help bring the answers that are needed and and set aside your concerns about you know getting yourself pulled pulled into something more than you might be thinking about. It's you know, it's it's really your obligation to another human being to be able to share that information. I think most people know that.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

I think it's just easy to not think about it and kind of let time move forward. We've also had the the opposite problem where we've actually had an investigator, you know, tell us that you know he wants us to stop talking because, oh, you're bringing in all these people and then I'm having to follow up on all these leads that are useless. And of course, my comment was, well, how do you know they're useless? You know, if you're not following up on them. So I I don't really care that you think that because I'm I'm representing the family in this case. And yeah, we might go through 10 or 15 leads that don't pan out, but it's just that one that's out there that might do that might actually break the case.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yeah, I completely agree with your sentiment on that, that you know, better better to have more intelligence to work with and then do do your job to analyze it and and figure it out. And um, yeah, because it just it just takes one, you know, takes takes one of the right pieces of information to kind of break stuff open again, send us down the path, corroborate something that you know was maybe the strength of the of the lead previously, or the connection or the assumption maybe it just wasn't as strong as we needed it to be, but that one piece of information that comes in helps get it there and then and then opens another door and another door.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah, I was right. I was like, um, I'm I'm sorry you have to get out behind your desk from behind your desk, but you know, I'd like to know what happened to this person. Exactly. So that's not how I looked at it.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

So if there's one thing that you want listeners to remember about Deanna's case, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 40:40

That that if you're listening to this and you're thinking about it and you're thinking about, you know, how you may have been close to it and can help, that it's that it is this may sound very, you know, just try it, that it's solvable, that the answer's out there, that the family is, you know, has been and is showing up, that people cared about her, care about her to date, and that we can get there with you know, kind of the global village of people's help, people stepping in and and being able to, again, think about what you may know. If it, you know, if it's a party that's listening to this and and they're not connected anyway, they don't know. I think it's just, you know, obviously carry that sentiment forward to any area where they can help, but you know, being able to be engaged, be able to support, and provide any information that you know is really really what we asked for on this, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

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