SPEAKER_02 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Today we're joined by Lori Williams, Crystal Cook's aunt, someone who has carried both the love and the loss of Crystal for more than two decades. When a family loses someone to violence, the grief doesn't stop after the headlines fade. It changes shape, settles into everyday life, and often becomes a lifelong commitment to remembering, advocating, and fighting for justice. Lori has lived through the heartbreak of losing Crystal, the challenges of navigating a system that continues long after a conviction, and the emotional weight of recent developments, including the parole hearing that took place this March of 2026 for the person serving time in Crystal's murder. Today, Lori joins us to share memories of who Crystal was beyond the tragedy, the lasting impact her loss has had on their family, and the work being done to honor her legacy through the Crystal Rose Cook nonprofit. Lori, thank you for being here and for trusting us with your family story and welcome to the show. Thank you both for having me here. I appreciate that. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Um, wow. Um she was, I would say, just she was a blessing when she when she arrived in our lives. Um she was the first granddaughter, my first niece, um, first granddaughter in the in the family, first grandchild. Um Crystal was very, she had this infectious laugh that um just it was just you could just hear it. I mean, that's just that's what I what stands out to me the most, besides her love of Mountain Dew. But she was very engaged with so many different things um and just really lived a full life. Um, that's she just like she loved Japanese. I mean, she was into dance, cheerleading, loved snowboarding, you know, typical teenager was in the youth group and just found the first love of her life, just about that time that she thought was the love of her life. And um, just an incredible young lady that just she just had a when I first wrote my first um impact statement, she just had a really genuine golden heart for people and for animals. That's probably my best way to describe her.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

What are your favor some of your favorite memories of her?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Oh, favorite ones would be she when she was especially when she was younger, um, just coming home from I used to live in Olympia, going to school, and and I would always come home every weekend just to see her. Um, that was one of my favorites just because she was so young and just, you know, just to hug her and whatnot. And then as she got older, just watching her grow, um, she uh she did like pageants. And one of my favorite memories of her is um is that she was in this little girl's pageant. I she was like five, I think, five or six. And um, and these little cute, all these little cute girls got up there and they did their walk on this stage, and and and these little girls were saying, um, or I guess these uh judges were asking, what would you like to do when you grow up? And and they were saying, an orthodontist and and all these professions that were, you know, way beyond a five-year-old. And then I remember Crystal came out and she goes, I just want to be a cashier lady. It was the it was just the funniest thing. And I've always remembered that because it was so genuine. And she ended up winning the page.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

It we're laughing over here because it it reminds me of um my my own daughter. We were, I don't know, she was maybe eight or nine. Uh-huh. And we were at, I don't know why we were at Arby's. We never ate, we never ate it, but we were at Arby's. And Michael is his teasing her. He's has this um just a really good-natured teasing that is just part of his characteristic. And he said to her, she's like fourth grade, she and he goes, Hey, you know why we're here? You should probably get an application. Uh, you can fill out an application. And do you want to say what she said?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

She goes, I'm not working at Arby's, I'm working McDonald's.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

That's funny. See, it's like the exact kind of thing. And I I always like this is you know, these are these moments that just always stay around. You know, and it was so funny.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yes, and that's well, that's yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know, because it just stood out. I I'll never forget that because I was a cashier lady, and so I just I thought, oh, it's funny.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Um it's good to have some laughs every once in a while. Um, so let's shift gears a little bit. Uh and so when Crystal Crystal was missing for a short period of time, um, and then we all know from listening to her story that um she was taken from your family. And so how did that loss change your family over the years?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Oh, wow. Um, that's that's really that's that's a that's an important question. I it's a hard one because it my whole life changed. Um, I guess is what you would say, just a whole 180, right? Just turned around. Um, but I uh it changed everything. It changed from oh boy. Uh I don't even know where to start with that one. It it was so traumatic because it was from the moment that she was missing. Um, I think there was a lot of denial. I think Leland spoke to that. Um, and I think when you go through denial, there comes a point when it's reality. And I think once it becomes reality, then it's shock, of course. And then then you have to slowly accept that the world isn't what you thought the world was. And I think that's where your whole existence changes because at that point in your life you don't trust anybody. And and I know that that's really might some people might say, Oh, I can't believe you'd say that, but it's true. On a system level and even on an interpersonal level, I think that you what ends up happening is I watch my family want to commit suicide. Um I've was I've I've heard my family want to kill somebody just to go to prison to kill murders. I was so possessive with my children that I don't know that they really lived a normal life. I mean, I think it was as normal as it could have been, I guess. Um, but I was pretty much like a mama bear as far as like um, you know, where they went, you know, who they were with. If they didn't come home, you better call me. I was on the phone to them. To this day, that has never left me. If I don't hear from one of my kids, I'm immediately calling them. It could be any family member. Where are they at? What's going on with them? Um, my anxiety, um, my mental health took a hit. Um, I ended up couldn't sleep at night. So they put me on medication for that. And I took it for several years to sleep at night because it disturbed my husband and he couldn't go to work because I'd be up just walking through the house, um, just scared. Not even scared, but just couldn't, my body couldn't settle down. Um, eventually I just ended up with anxiety. Um, my my doctor actually he he diagnosed me with PTSD. Um, but it it took such a a toll on my family overall, um, because nobody knows how to grieve. And nobody knows, we don't have an instruction book on how do you cope with murder, then especially in the aftermath. I mean, how do you make love to your husband when you're devastated? Um, how do you hold a marriage together and let your child walk out the door in a car with somebody who's asking them out on a date and you don't know them? You you know, there's just so many dynamics that go into what people don't understand, I think, with the aftermath of murder. But it was, it was tremendous. I as far as just the impact, there's so many different um dynamics that go into that, that um, that's just touching the surface of how it impacted the family.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

You talked um uh through that about grief, and we actually had a really interesting conversation with someone that we met along this journey uh who has a podcast uh that's all about grief, and he came on our show. And I think what really resonates with me, um, what you just said is is people don't always know how to approach families of victims of this kind of situation, right? And so I I would really like for you to speak kind of to that. And what do people sometimes misunderstand about what families of homicide victims continue to live with decades later? And and how can people best support families who are going through this experience?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Um, I would say um some of the statements that are made, and I know that they're not made out of malice, I know they're not, but there's some you know, statements that are made first and foremost. I want to address that. That people need to understand that it's probably better not to make statements. It's better to just give a hug and say, I'm sorry. It's better to be silent as opposed to words that are gonna make somebody feel worse about themselves. And and what I'm referencing to there is um we heard everything from, well, God's got another angel. Everything happens for a reason. You need to forgive, or you can't be forgiven. So many statements I believe people were well-meaning, but they say things, and I would say first and foremost, is don't make a statement to somebody. They this just lost somebody. It's best to just be silent or give a hug. I'm sorry. Um, or what can I do to help you? It's it's it's probably more simple, you know, as far as that piece of it goes. But as you go through it, um, everybody's journey is different because everybody's relationship with the loved one is different. Um, so I think people that want to support somebody, number one is educate yourself. Number one. Um, because grief uh doesn't, it's not like a one size fits all. Everybody's different. Some people are very expressive, so you really don't know what they're feeling, so you can't assume they're doing okay. Um, because they might not be. They just don't know how to talk about it. And and I could go into that further, but I won't. That's my education piece on that. And it could be a gender thing there. A lot of men don't talk about it because they're protectors, they don't want to share their feelings. Where women tend to be a little bit more emotional, um, so they cry, you know, and the and their spouses want to protect them. And how do I do this? And if I break down too, then who's gonna take care of us? And so I think to to make an assumption would be the second thing is not to make an assumption about who how they're grieving, because everybody is different. Um, and some people want to talk, some people don't, some people want to move on with life, some don't. But what I can say, and I'm just gonna veer off from that a little bit, is um is that um educating, I think educating yourself on people that how to co or how to approach co-victims of homicide is something I wish we had more education. That's why I appreciate what you folks do. And you're putting that education out there. Um, and just as a side note, because that we did fight really hard in the state of Washington to get to recognize homicide victims. Um, they passed a resolution um years ago. We were part of that committee, and uh just to be able to recognize folks on homicide, because that's the start right there, and just like your podcast. And I think we need education. I think there needs to be more education on violence, whether it be homicide on um an individual, like say a loved one, and/or mass shootings, murders, whatever that looks like. Um, because I think mass murders get more attention or mass casualties get more attention than an individual. And I think sometimes we need to start recognizing that a person is a person, whether it's in a group or if it's an individual. So I think there's a lot of education to be done. Um, but I think I'm gonna go back to this. If I was to give somebody a piece of advice how to approach, I would definitely say just say I'm sorry. Give a hug.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

I think that's really good feedback. Sometimes people will say something like, Oh, I understand what you're going through. Also, also not okay. Right. Right. Even if you have a similar, similar experience, you I mean, somebody I like to make it more approachable to people, and maybe that more people to experience is divorce, right? So many people have been divorced. But if you have someone in your life who's getting divorced and you go, Oh, I went through divorce, I know how that feels. Here's some things that work for me, like none of that is helpful, right? Um, I really like your feedback. You know, give a hug and say, I'm so sorry. What can I do for you in this moment? Yeah. What do you need from me?

unknown 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Because it really is individualized. It is. And then we've had some pretty just things that were said that were totally inappropriate. Like, well, when you get over this, we'll go to dinner. You know. Meaning we'll probably never have dinner, but it got it. That's you know what? That's exactly what I said. Right. Was I thought to myself, well, then we'll probably never have dinner because you don't get over homicide and somebody being taken from your life like that. You're never gonna get over it. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

So we talked um a little bit about, you know, justice and what does justice mean? And for our listeners, it is a question that I I used to ask. I I don't ask it anymore. Like, what does justice look like for you? And part of part of this shift that I've experienced is because we've had the opportunity to speak with you all and learn from you all. Um, and I want to speak specifically about um the parole hearing that just happened in March of 2026. And can you tell us um what that was like, that experience for you and your family?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Wow. Yeah, that was tough. I'm not gonna lie. That was rough. Number one, I I it was rough first and foremost because our victim advocate did not prepare us. And I think um I think just so preparation for those who come after us um for parole hearings, be prepared. And I think luckily, and I say luckily, for us, oh and I'm gonna go back to the parole hearing in a second. For us, um, we've been along the journey with um uh POMC. So we went to a lot of conferences along throughout the years. And so I I I'm very um versed with advocating, I should say. So um that parole hearing was very difficult because if we couldn't get more time and keep him in jail, which we kept hearing, quote unquote, he was supposed to be getting out, he kept saying this, the offender, um, we would have to go back to a parole hearing and fight this every two years in the state of Oregon. And so then when we had received those letters um about his behavior and his conduct over the 25 years and no rehabilitation, um, we we gathered up um, you know, letters from the community of support families. We just, you know, asked for everybody to start, you know, sending letters, calling the parole board, um, calling the governor. I mean, you name it. It was just, it was kind of like one of those things where you're almost running on adrenaline for about a month or so, just trying to gain the momentum of this this man can't get out. And I'll tell you what that felt like. This is truly what it felt like. Um, it felt like your life could just be snuffed out in any moment because of who this individual is and the threats that he's put out over the years. Um, all I could think about for myself was my family. And I kept thinking how hard we fought the first go-around and all the searches and then the knocks on the doors and searching for her. All I could think about was my own family, and and I remember thinking I can give everything I have to fight this and I'll do it. And you know, I I prayed a lot and I just kept telling God that you know, if you're faithful, you know, we gotta keep this guy in jail. And um and I just it was it was hard because it took a toll on the family. You know, I I went really private in my life. Um, as far as because I didn't know what would happen to my family, my my kids were upset because they were having to deal with this as an adults now instead of as young children. And I think you because and I I want to be careful when I say this because I I'm not saying every offender is like the offender that we were dealing with. Um, I believe there are people that can be real rehabilitated that maybe are a drug fence, you know, that sold drugs and got caught. I I don't know. I'm talking about lower offenses. But I we just knew in his case that this was not the issue, you know, we knew what type of person he was. And it it dredged up a lot from the past about just everything that we had gone through. So you're reliving what you did 25 years ago, but it's amplified because now you're reliving it again, only you're reliving it in reality instead of numb. We were in shock before. But um, as my mentor Mary Elledge says, who's the um chapter leader of the parents of the murder children in Oregon, she always says, you're when you first go through it, you're weak and you're in shock. She goes the second time when you have to go through this, you're stronger and you have the fight in you. And I think we took every bit of fight we had and all the resources we could get our hands on. And that's what I would suggest to people if they ever have to go through this. You you can't leave anything undone. You just gotta fight and um and never not show up for a pearl hearing, because that they didn't expect it. They told us nobody ever shows up. And we all showed up. So it was a hard process, but um, the result was good for us. But um anyway, it was difficult.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

You talked a little bit about safety, safety for you, safety for your family, and and this I I went through that. We I had some moments in this journey specifically around when we were supporting um the Kilgore family, and this is Michael's uncle who and his um homicide has not been solved. And as people were talking to us, you know, in the community, um, there were some things that came up that potentially whomever obviously whoever did this isn't like a safe person, right? And there were some concerns about, you know, is you know, are we talking about some pretty high level people who are trafficking drugs or something like this? And so I had some moments where I said, should we? Doing this? Like, is this safe for us? Is this safe for, you know, my daughter? And so on a very small level, I under I'm not going to say understand. I hear you. And I and I experienced that, but obviously not in the same at the same level that you did it. That's just kind of what is resonating with me as you're talking through your experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I think I think it's interesting when we talk about that and about how the impact of a parole hearing has, because we sometimes, and I know for me, and I'm going to speak for me, because I can't speak for my children, but I didn't realize the impact it would have on them until they actually shared that with me. You know, mom, I'm scared. So I think we I think sometimes I don't think the public, maybe the public doesn't have the awareness that when you're reliving and going to back to a parole hearing is and when you're fighting to keep somebody in jail that is a danger to society, in whatever form that is. Um it you you do can become a mark because you're, you know, you're keeping them there.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

And so what gave you strength during all of that?

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Family, community, um God. Um, I'm a strong believer. I'm not religious, but I'm definitely believing God. I I believe exercise, whether you believe that or not. Um it was my I lift weights, so I went to the gym and lifted it out. Uh cry. The fight in you. It's the fight that sustains you. It's the it's it's like your um it's your willpower. It's almost something there that just says you have to fight it. And it just gives you that automatic strength to know that you're fighting for crystal, you're fighting for your family, you're fighting for everybody, you're fighting for what is right, and you're fighting for justice. And I think when you you put all of those things together, how do I explain this? You know, let me back up and I'm sorry. You I think about the 25-26 years ago, um, picking myself up off the ground and feeling like I was in this dark black hole, because that's what I felt like when I heard the news. The echoes of the screams of my mother, and I remember saying, How are we gonna go forth from here? And I think you take all of the things that you learned along the way through your experience, through your conferences, just your willpower to keep going and to help other people. You take all those experiences and you take that at one moment and you say, This is what these tools are for, and this is what we're gonna do. And that's what you do.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

One thing I want to ask about you've mentioned conferences a few times. So what conferences are you attending? Because we'd like our listeners to to know what that is, and because I I didn't even know there were conferences in this support.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

So help us with that. Uh um, it's called Parents of Murdered Children. Um, and it's not just for children, let me be clear. That's just the name they give it years ago when Bob and Charlotte Hollinger um had developed this group, um, because it was for their daughter, but it's been around for years. Um, but it's Parents of Murdered Children, it's in and it's out of um Cincinnati, Ohio. And there's chapters throughout the United States, and so people can look that up. And so these conferences, every year they have an annual conference, and this is their 40th year. It's in it's in um Cincinnati, it's in Columbus, Ohio. And um, and these conferences, they do, they bring, matter of fact, that's where I met Nancy Grace for the very first time. Well, the only time, but that's where I met her. But uh what they do is they bring guest speakers in, whether it's from Washington, DC, bills they're working on, things that are going, you know, that are happening. They bring in like um guest speakers. It's and then they have classes that pertain to like parole hearings, um, how to grieve if you're a man, what did my loved ones suffer when they got killed? What's it like in prison? It's just various classes. Some of them are on self-care. And so what happens, and then then they have a memorial during that that um conference. And it typically runs from um Friday through Sunday. And it's for for all families, anybody that or professionals that want to learn what folks go through.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

I think this is so important. Uh one of the things that I think we've done really well is building a support system for our families within the community. So in our own community, um, there have been some families that we have connected, um, our family to some other families who are experiencing um uh the loss of a loved one. And we've done a great job in the community, but what is now becoming apparent to me is that we need to help our families find out about what other supports are out there. And this is a perfect example. So I just want to thank you so much for sharing this. Oh, no, this is very, very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

That's what this is about. That's exactly what this is all about. Is it is it's about educating. And that's why, but no, it's Parents and Murder Children is a wonderful organization. And when Crystal got murdered, that was the first resource that we were given. And so we've done fundraisers with them. Um, they they just they they do they they've been around a long time. The National Day of Remembrance for homicide victims is September 25th. Um, just as a side note, um, so people know that. Um, they do celebrate that typically somewhere along the line for different um like like what do I want to say, different groups in different states. And so um, but they but just so you're so your listeners know and you know as well, you know, as you go on, is um parents of murder children also has a hotline that you can call and they talk to you if you're struggling. And so you they can reach out and and those are folks that know what you they can typically it may not be the same experience, but most of them have lost a loved one to homicide they have and they will talk to people.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

This is so this is so meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Thank you for sharing all that. Oh, no, no, no, no, absolutely, absolutely. No, that's that's what's important, yeah. So just know that. And then um, and like I say, and then they can reach out to the main um organization and they will tell them where there's a group in their area as well. So, so they're a great resource for folks that have obviously, you know, um, and the groups also, just so folks know too, um, even if it's an unsolved crime, a lot of times they can still go to the support groups and um and get support from folks to help them through that process because a lot of those folks never found their loved ones. And um, and in addition to that, parents of murdered children, there's people that are on the board or within the organization that are private detectives. They have ways of helping them um, you know, tap into different resources and whatnot with solving crime to some degree. I don't know how many people there are now, but they have in the past.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

And so let's keep talking about advocacy um and what your family is doing with your own, with the group that you are um creating. So talk talk to us about your perspective of the heart behind the Crystal Rose Cook nonprofit and why it was important to create it.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Well, I, you know, I'm not my my brother's heading that one up um or heading that group up, but from what I understand, it's to help folks um, you know, like say for expenses so that they like just things that we've gone through as a family, you know, being able to, you know, um just I I believe he's setting it up to help people that have gone through the same thing with, you know, like financial, you know, resources and whatnot, as far as that goes. And I even I I thought he mentioned it once, developing it as a scholarship.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah, that stuck with me because I I'm a I'm a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

So yep, exactly. And I think it's important because sometimes, yes, I just think it's important and in her in in Crystal's name. That's wonderful, you know, to be able to help those folks that are really in need, you know, that, you know, just a scholarship to go out there in her in her name.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

And I'm even thinking about like if we kind of go back to these um amazing resources that you're sharing with us, most, uh if not all of the families that we are serving um come from underrepresented, um, maybe they're minorities or you know, live in a I think impoverished is too big of a word, but maybe an area where uh they aren't as economically blessed as we happen to be. And so I can see, you know, the benefit of that too, and maybe supporting families to get to where they need to be who maybe otherwise couldn't afford to do it on their own to get there.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there's there's so much that I think, and and this is what I love about this podcast is the fact that um there's so much need out there, and you're getting that out there because there's so much untapped, it's it's it's just it it's just mind-blowing. It what how much homicide there is that we nobody even knows about. And unsafe crime.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

How can our listeners support the mission um of the nonprofit and help to keep Crystal's story alive?

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Um, I would say sharing about it, and then, you know, if if they financially can donate to it, but I would definitely say um sharing and letting folks know about it. And then as they get the website, the the more information out there, um, and then taking those resources and helping folks.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

I want to go back um to the conversation we were having about grief. And if you could say something directly to families who are walking through similar grief, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Hmm. No, you're not alone and and reach out to like these different places, like we're just talking about, um, different organizations and whatnot. Um, I would say tap into resources, but never, I want to say no you're not alone, because I think there's a there's something to be said when you're walking through this type of grief, um, traumatic grief. Um you can really think nobody understands how you feel. Because like we shared, because all grief is different, but there's always somebody out there willing to listen. There is. And that's why these organizations, these the like nonprofit group and parents of murder children and your victims advocate crime compensation organization. That's why these are so important. Um, because what I've seen over the years, and this is why I want people to know that even unsolved crime is that they're they're not alone, and I don't want them to give up. And I know it can be easy to say, I can't do this anymore, or I need this happens a lot. You know, I've seen people commit suicide, I've seen people get on the bottle, the drugs, and and to try to ease the pain. The pain can be so overbearing that you don't know where to put that pain.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

And before we close, is there anything about Crystal or your family's journey that we haven't asked that you would want our listeners to know?

SPEAKER_00 34:26

I would say that from our family to you folks, that um that you're doing a good work. This is what I would say, because it's been long overdue that somebody's stepped up to to recognize victims of crime, co-victims of crime.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

We really appreciate that. I, you know, it we I don't think that we intended to um get to this place in this journey. I'm not saying I'm not happy to be here. We were thinking we would do probably a few, you know, episodes to support our family and Jody's unsolved homicide, and people just um reached out and reached out and reached out. And so the thing was there, and so we like it.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

That was the most surprising thing to me in in a good way.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Is you know, we've talked about some podcasts before, so people who've listened will know the story, but it was originally supposed to be a handful of episodes to help the family get some more exposure for Jody, and um that was gonna be it. And then, you know, someone reached out and said, Have you heard about this guy, Ian Rogers? And then so we talked to his mother, then we picked up that story, and then another call came and then another, and then another after that. And so it became very inspiring to continue.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

There you go, right there. The announcement, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Here we are. We're about to roll into almost 70 episodes. I can't believe it's I can't believe I'm saying that after one year. It's only been a year.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

See, there you go. I I'm just like so pleased because that's what I would say from us to you is probably more than anything, is because to for us, it's really speaking about Crystal. It's keeping um her name out there, and and and that's it's just important. And I think that I know it's like you said though, you made it just a statement. It's not something that, you know, it it's what do I want to say? It's not something that everybody's gonna go around, oh yeah, this is what we're doing, right? But the reality of it is who's gonna do it? Who's gonna do it? And so I think that's why I I think we have so much appreciation for it, is because folks like you are stepping up and doing it. You're helping people. And that, you know, every little broad, you know, every little podcast, not every little, but I mean each one. And I think that that's what's important.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, I think for me, as you say that, like, you know, I mentioned that I was an educator and and I was, you know, either in the classroom or a leader or something for 30 years. And to boil it all down, it I'm still helping people. That I mean, like that's the crux of really what I was doing all those years, whether it was coaching a teacher or helping a student to learn to read or helping a family navigate, you know, the special education system. And that's just part of what I do. And and fortunately, whomever, the universe, whatever, you know, resonates with you, put this in front of us and and allows me to continue to help people. It just looks different, but it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

It's the same thing. And that's what I said over the years is you have to put your pain into purpose because you can not do it. And that's why I try to encourage people to keep walking forward because that's what it's about, is that pain's got to go somewhere, and you might as well put it to good purpose and help other people. And that's how I found my healing was through helping other people.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

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