SPEAKER_02 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Today we're speaking with Amanda Routon, one of Haley's friends. Amanda spent time with Haley and remembers the normal everyday parts of her life, the things that can sometimes get lost when a case becomes about timelines and unanswered questions. In this conversation, Amanda helps us understand who Haley was and what she remembers about the time before Haley disappeared. Thank you for joining us, sharing your memories, and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

All right, before we get into the actual interview, there's a game that we've started playing this season. So Elisa, you want to kick our question game off.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yes. So we have three questions for you, Amanda. We're going to start with uh an easy one. This is about peanut butter. Do you like crunchy peanut butter or smooth peanut butter?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Definitely smooth peanut butter.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Boo.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

How about you, Michael?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Well, you already know the answer to that, because yeah, I I think crunchy peanut butter is something they should have never invented. Smooth peanut butter only, because to me it just gets rid of the fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Smooth peanut butter gets rid of the fun or crunchy makes it.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Crunchy makes it unfun. Oh, I see. It gets in my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

See now my daughter also smooth. So when she was young and growing up, I'm obviously on Team Crunchy. I would buy crunchy peanut butter and they're like, why are you doing this? And then of course the crunchy peanut butter would last for a year and the smooth would be gone in about three months. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Well, crunchy peanut butter is just it's just not done. They didn't finish it.

unknown 2:17

They didn't finish it.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

I have the same I have the same opinion of crunchy peanut butter that I have. It's cottage cheese. Like who invented cottage cheese and how did they know they were done?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

But you also don't like cottage cheese, and I like cottage cheese. I'm starting to think. See, okay. So I thought for you, I think this is a consistency issue, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Oh, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

I think that's what it is. Okay. Question number two. What is the last TV show you binge watched?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Um, that would be Virgin River.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

I don't know that.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Never heard of it. It's on Netflix.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

And tell us a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So it's about a doctor who um came back to Virgin River, the town where her dad was at. Well, she thought it was her biological dad. Anyways, he she came back over there to open up a small practice. It's like a small town, and ends up falling in love over there. And her and her husband try to have a baby, and there's a lot of stuff along the way. It's it's like a, you know, it's a girl and chick flick.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

So, Michael, you want to start binge watching that tonight?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Um, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

It's really good. Okay, Michael, how about you?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Um, Pluribus is I think the last thing we technically binge watch.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Um, and I would love to explain what it's about, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Is this the one that's on Apple TV only?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

It's on Apple TV only, and it's the one where the people got taken over and they you know they become this collective mind. There's like there's a handful of people that don't get impacted by it, and you're watching them live through this. So it's hard to explain how you know how it works, but that's good about that. Yeah, but that's the last thing we've been trying to. I actually find it's it's interesting, but it has very long segments of boring too.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah, there was that one episode where there was like six words.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Six words the whole episode.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah. So we don't have Apple TV, um, and we spend a lot of time traveling the country in our camper. And so sometimes we do this thing called mooch docking where you stay at someone's house and use their things. Um, and the where we are at that time, the person had Apple TV. So we were like, ooh, Apple TV. So we started like checking out things that we wouldn't have access to normally. That's how we came up with Pleurobus. Okay.

unknown 4:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

So for me, um, I have an affinity for shows like The Circle, um, Love is Blind, and those kinds of things, which go ahead, Michael. I know you'd like to add. That's awful. He hates them. So does my daughter. And so it when he goes like out of town for work or goes like on a boys' fishing trip or something over the weekend, I order lots of Mexican DoorDash, Mexican food DoorDash, and I watch The Circle and 90 Day Fiance and Love is Blind and all of those things. So that's what I like to binge watch. Because you're not around, and I know you hate them. And my daughter too. She's like, this is garbage. I'm like, you're a girl, you're supposed to like this. She doesn't want to watch it. Okay, well, Virgin River, but you gave that a big fat no. So Amanda and I will be watching TV together. Yep. Okay, last question. If you could tell your younger self one thing, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Oh, um that would be to listen to my mom. Um, you know, growing up, all kids think that they know everything and that their parents don't know anything. And in the end, parents are always right. And I'm going through that with my 16-year-old daughter right now, who thinks that I don't know anything. And I remember fighting with my mom all the time, telling her, You don't understand, you don't understand. But as I grow up, I realize she understood everything. And everything that she would advise me to do or against is the same the same things I'm doing with my daughter right now. And if I would have just listened to her, it would have cut out all those fights along the way.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Interesting. Michael?

SPEAKER_01 6:19

With me, I think it would be really aware on work. I think I spent a great deal of my time being really serious about work, and I allowed my my work to become my identity, you know, or part or a significant component of my identity. And I think I regret that now that I've gotten older. And so even with this new job, while I do enjoy my new job, I keep a very specific separation between family and work or friends and work or any anything. Work is work, and it's not part of my identity anymore. And I think it's a better choice. I just wish I learned it sooner.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good one. For me, it's really simple. It's um be nice. I wasn't the nicest of girls in high school. I was one of those mean girls. I was a mean girl. Um, I'm not proud of it, and I don't really know what it was about or why I did it. But now I have these shirts that say be kind to everybody. And people are like, You're always so nice. And I'm like, oh, I gotta make up for some poor choices I made growing up. So, like, just be nice. Be nice to people, don't be a bossy B, I guess is the word is what I would tell myself. All right. Well, thank you for that. I I think I need to keep asking questions until I get a team crunchy person. Yeah, there's somebody out there. They make crunchy peanut butter for a reason. Yeah, because there's anybody who said yes yet. Well, I think we haven't asked we usually ask different questions, but I think I might stick with this one for a little while.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

No, I I just think you're just gonna find people that aren't smart or have bad taste.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

That like crunchy peanut butter.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

That's correct.

unknown 7:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

All right. Thanks. That's good. Okay. All right. So let's pivot um and let's talk about Haley. And the first thing we'd like for you to tell us is how did you know Haley? What is your relationship with Haley and maybe your best memory?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Um, so I first met Haley. Oh, I was 21, 22, so this was 20 years ago. Um, the father of her oldest daughter was my daughter's father's best friend. And so they kind of introduced us. We were pregnant with our daughters at the same time. Um, and so, you know, that's how we first became to be friends is through them. And then along the way, you know, she Haley is just somebody that her personality just shines and you're just naturally drawn to her. Um, has the biggest heart. And I mean, when she loves somebody, she truly loves them. And so we, you know, throughout the years, we would lose touch and come back. But it was like you always pick up like no time has ever uh lapsed, you know. Um, one of my favorite memories, I mean, we have a lot together, but you know, I struggled in my past with substance use and mental health. And when I first turned my life around, her and I got an apartment together. And so it was her, I, and my daughter. And there was numerous nights where we would just all snuggle in Haley's bed and watch TV and you know, just be girls and pig out and just laugh. And it was it was really good times.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

And so if we think about um sort of the days and the weeks and the months that led up to when you all became aware that it had been a good period of time before Haley had reached out, did you notice anything that was unusual or different about her leading up to that time?

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Well, unfortunately, I didn't. Um, I had been fostering Haley's middle daughter for the last three and a half, almost four years. And so for a year, year and a half before she went missing, I didn't really communicate with her as much. Um, it kind of changed our relationship because, you know, as much as I love Haley, I was also, I took on this role to love and protect her daughter as well. And so I had to set up some pretty strict boundaries with her. Um, and so, you know, I would message her and check in on her every once in a while, but it kind of pulled me in two different directions because here I am, you know, raising her daughter, and she, you know, she would come to the visits and stuff, but we just kind of lost touch because with fostering, they tell you not to intertwine those two worlds, you know. So I didn't really notice as much as other people did just because I wasn't as close in her life at the time.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

When you say what other people notice, what types of things were other people noticing?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Like when um Shasta was the first one to notice that she hadn't been active online, um, you know, and she wasn't responding to her messages and stuff like that. That's what I'm talking about, is just because I wasn't looking to message her and talk to her all the time like other people were. So I didn't notice a difference of her not posting things online or calling or, you know, returning phone calls or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Because at the time your communication, as you just established, was the visitation. And so she was sometimes coming to those, sometimes not. So you didn't necessarily necessarily see any change because it seems like it may have been unpredictable just by nature. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

How are the visitations going?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

At that point, um, pretty sporadic. Um for the first year and a half that I had, her daughter, um she never made it to a full week of visits. Um you know, she would see her a couple times a week, but it wasn't the schedule the normal amount of scheduled visits. Like she didn't make it to all of them. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Um so it just seems like in general, and I think Shasta had to talk to us about this too, is sometimes she wouldn't be communicating online and she might kind of fall off, and then she would come back and start communicating in, and then she would fall off. And it wasn't until there was a longer p period of time, seems like maybe three to four, maybe even five weeks, that's when Shasta's kind of red flag started going up.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Exactly. Because she would have, you know, she would have a phone and then she would lose the phone or it would get broken, so then she'd have to get another one, and that's just kind of routine when you're in that world, you know, it's not anything out of the ordinary. Nobody thinks anything of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Mm-hmm. Talk to me. And then they first noticed, oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

No, you're fine. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

They first noticed um on Thanksgiving, she would always reach out to her mom no matter what, you know, any holiday, she would always reach out and say happy Thanksgiving or Merry Christmas or whatever. And Thanksgiving and Christmas both came and went, and there was no word from her. And so that's when it kind of drew a red flag.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

So that's um exactly what we're talking about when we're thinking about what's out of even if it's an unpredictable norm, there are some norms that were established, the Thanksgiving, the Christmas, and those messages didn't happen. And that's when things, you know, people started kind of rallying around. Yep. So tell us about your recollections when you first began to learn that she had that she had not communicated for several months, and then, you know, things started moving forward with the missing persons. Tell us about your experience with that.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

It was really hard. Um, like I said, I, you know, fostering her daughter, it's been, you know, it's changed our relationship. And so Haley and I weren't always on the best of terms the last couple of years, and it's it kind of made played a trick with my mind. Like, you know, I started thinking, like, well, maybe if I would have reached out more or if I would have called more, you know, maybe things could have been different. Um, so it was really hard. And I so I started looking back on my messages, you know, seeing when the last time that I had talked to her, or when the last time she had reached out to me. And then Shasta and I kind of um compared, you know, days and times. And the last time that I had heard anything from her was in the summer before. So there wasn't, you know, I couldn't really do much to help as far as the timeline went with that. But um it at first I didn't really, I thought, you know, maybe, well, this can't be true, you know, like she's gonna be okay, you know. She maybe she ended up going to treatment like she said she was, or maybe, you know, she's just, you know, somewhere where she doesn't have service because at the time where she was staying, she would go in and out of service. But then, you know, days turned into weeks, turned into months, and you know, that's when we kind of realize like something isn't right.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

How did you end up fostering for her?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Um, so you know, Haley and I have been close for a long time. Um, her daughter, I kept her overnight at the for the first time when she was just two weeks old. Um, my daughter is like a little mama herself and just loves babies, loves babysitting. And we found out that she had had the baby, and so she's like, Mom, can you call Haley? Have her bring the baby over. And I was like, Well, no, you know, she's only two weeks old. I doubt she's gonna do that. But surprisingly, I think Haley was just exhausted and kind of needed a break, you know. So we kept her overnight. Um, and then the next day Haley came and got her, and then it was just kind of like normal. She would message me or my daughter and be like, Hey, do you want to babysit for a little bit? You know? So then we had her daughter at least a few times a week for months before I ended up getting her placed with me. Um, she was at our house three to four days sometimes, you know, because they would pay my daughter to babysit and she's, you know, not gonna turn down money and not gonna turn down time to spend with a baby. And so she was at our house all the time, anyways. And then um she September 21st of 2022, so Eric, sorry, um, she was less than nine months old, anyways. Um, I got a call from Haley and she was at the hospital with DCYF and they were taking the baby, and so she had asked me if I could foster her, and I personally myself didn't think that they would approve me because, like I said, I've struggled with mental health and chemical dependency in my past as well. You know, I've gotten into some trouble too. And so I was like, well, of course I will, you know, but I doubt they're gonna approve me. And so then I talked to the worker, and two hours later there was a knock on my door, and you know, they said it was only gonna be for 72 hours at the time, and that was three and a half years ago.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Mm-hmm. And I understand there have been or are coming some shifts with some of the some of Haley's um children. And I don't does that involved does that involve the her middle child, the one you have?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yes. So her oldest daughter is 16, and her Haley's mom has custody of her and has since she was three weeks old. I have her middle daughter, who just turned four, and then her younger daughter is two, and she's up in um Federal Way with her Haley sister, Ashley. Um there, so the younger two's dad just got out of prison back in March and has been um doing really well, you know. Um, he's been doing everything that DCYF has asked him, done treatment, got his own housing, got off probation, everything like that. So the girls have been actually going and seeing him quite a bit. Um, they have overnights on the weekends and then visits throughout the day. So everything's kind of up in the air right now. Nothing's changed as of yet, but eventually that's where it's looking like the girls are gonna be back with their dad sooner rather than later.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Talk to us a little bit about once the missing person um case was filed. What do you recollect about the community and law enforcement's reaction and support for you all um and for Haley's family?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Oh, um I honestly, in my opinion, it doesn't seem like law enforcement has really taken it seriously. Um I believe it's mainly been Shasta and everyone that she has gathered to help her. Um, there's been many tips that have came in, and a lot of people have said, you know, like, hey, I reached out to the deputy um, you know, with some information. I can't seem to get a hold of them. You know, people would call in tips and it seemed like there was no follow-through. Um I don't know if that's for sure or not, you know, it's just kind of the stigma around it because you know, Haley was an addict. She's had mental health issues, you know, and it just seems like it seems like a lot more cases get more like publicity about it, you know, more people trying like boots on the ground looking than Haley's case has. It just it seems like I don't know, it just makes me sick just thinking that, you know, just because of her issues that they aren't giving it as much attention that it seems. And you I mean, I know people, you know, there's a lot of different tips that come in. And if people are following all these tips, if these cops would be following all these tips, they would be running around ragged. I get that. But it's like, you know, numerous people have called in with different tips, and it just doesn't seem like any of them were followed up on. And people would have to go through Shasta to get a tip or a message to the detective the detective because he wouldn't return any phone calls to anybody else.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yes, and I hear Shasta talk about, you know, she'd get f hear about some sort of tip, and it doesn't matter what time of the day or night it is, she's up, she's out, she's going, she's chasing the tip at like two in the morning, three in the morning, whatever time it is, and then turning it back around to um Detective Hanbury to give him the information that she's gathered. Yeah. Um and is this is not un unfortunately, this is not unusual. We have a couple of um families that we have supported where there's been something that has marginalized the person who is missing. And our famil those families say the same thing. They they say, because my son, X, Y, Z, we don't feel like law enforcement is doing their due diligence. Um, so it's become kind of a reoccurring story on our on our side. And so one of our big things is to make sure that we are giving you all an opportunity to talk about Haley as a person and not talk about some of those characteristics and behaviors that she had. And so it's why it's so important for us that we're able to speak with you and just learn about Haley, the person.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Um I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yeah. And can you do you recall in some of our other cases that we've covered, there's been a massive. Massive community, even if it's a small community. We've had people say as soon as somebody was um said they were missing, people come and they search and they they walk the roads and they look along the roadways and they look over the embankments because a lot of our people go missing in cars. Do you remember anything happening like that? Like searches that were put just a community-based searching.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

The only searches that I'm aware of that have gone on is from what Shasta has pulled together. Um she's gone out there in the beginning, it was almost daily. You know, she there would be different places that she would go search, you know, daily, going door to door, knocking on people's doors, handing out flyers, going anywhere. Um, as far as others, there hasn't been any other searches besides the one that she's put together.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Something that is interesting that happened to me personally when we find out about um someone who's missing or an unsolved homicide, I first start out just by seeing what I can learn about that person. You know, have there been news reports, have there been, you know, Facebook groups? And of course I found the Facebook group right away. But when I went outside of that, I wasn't really able to find very much about Haley. In fact, something that I did find that Shasta and I talked about wasn't even about Haley, it was about somebody else because the Google searches was just like combining things, and so it just is unnerving, I guess, to me that there didn't appear to be a lot of press acknowledging that she had been missing even like a local paper or local Facebook group or something like that. Um, and that's just again something that we hear unfortunately quite often.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

True. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Um, why do you think that this that that Haley has not been found, or what do you think are some barriers that perhaps maybe somebody knows something, or you know, what do you think is preventing this from maybe moving forward?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Well, I know somebody knows something. I mean, you know, whoever did this knows exactly where she is. But I also believe that in that lifestyle people are afraid of what's gonna happen to them if they come forward with any kind of truth, any kind of evidence, because there's always a backlash or people getting back at people for you know, going to the cops and snitching is what they call it, you know. Um I I I don't know. This person that is supposedly responsible for her disappearance knows the woods like the back of his hand. He's grown up in the woods, he's lived his whole life out there, and so I bl I just I believe that he's really good at hiding things that he doesn't want to be found, you know. I I don't I don't know. I'm just at a loss for words with how long it's been, and we've found absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

One thing I'm curious about is you know, we talked about this mushroom picking um kind of weekend. Is this something she normally did?

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Um, not that I know of. I but like I said, I you know haven't been in her life for the past few years, so I don't know what she was doing day to day. Um when you're in that life, it's just kind of spur of the moment every day. You know, somebody brings you an idea of you want to go do this for the day, and you're like, oh yeah, that sounds fun. So I don't know. I know she did like to go out and go to the river or go, you know, on a hike and look for different rocks and agates and stuff like that. So it's not too far out of you know the stretch of things that she would like to do as far as mushroom picking. I personally have never heard her going mushroom picking, but you know, our relationships kind of then changed the last few years, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah, the reason I asked is because I do know people who do that in Colorado when we live there. And most of the people that I knew did that were really into it. Um, like they would go out with books and they had all this research they've done. It just seem doesn't seem like a spur of the moment thing, which is why I thought it was strange.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's what the person claimed.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah, because you can you can go out there and pick something that can hurt you if you don't really know what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah. Exactly. Mm-hmm. I would love to have more information about some of the interviews that were conducted, particularly with this person that um we know for a fact was the last person to see her and came out of this area on his own. And I have requested records from local law enforcement. And because it's an active case, we're not getting anything, which we completely understand because we don't want to compromise what's going on in the case. But I'm just wondering if there's been any chatter in the community about what has been said from anybody who has been interviewed, or if anyone knows anything about what was said.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

All that I know is that this person and Haley supposedly went out to Rose Valley to go mushroom picking. He sent a friend um, you know, hours later a message saying, I need help. I'm out at this location, I lost my friend, I need you to come pick me up. As far as any other statements, I don't know. Supposedly the Shasta said the cops had even interviewed this person and asked him, you know, when was the last time you saw Haley? And he had even told the cops that they were out at the woods and this time, you know, and that he lost her. And that was that. Like he just lost her out. They didn't follow up on it anymore. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Tell us about the impact that her disappearance has had on you.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

It's been really hard. Um you know, like I said, her and I have lost contact or lost not really contact, but our relationships change, you know, over the few years that I've had her daughter. And, you know, it has played a big guilt trip on me thinking, you know, maybe I should have reached out more, maybe I should have, you know, tried to do this or do that. And I mean, at the end of the day, I know that I did the right thing and I'm taking care of her daughter like she had asked me to, you know, and she knows that I love her. And I had tried numerous times to reach out and get her into treatment and you know, get her help, but it's um it's just been really hard because, you know, I look at her daughter and I'm not her mom, you know. Like, I mean, I'm her mom every day, you know, but I'm not her birth mom. And I I see Haley in her every single day, and that's just it's good and bad, you know. Like I see the best parts of Haley every day. She has her smile, her quirky dance moves, her laugh, you know, she's Haley in a little girl. And at the same time, that just breaks my heart because she'll never get to meet her mom, you know, and see the amazing person that Haley is. And it's just I don't, it's hard because it's just a constant reminder of what a beautiful person Haley was or is, you know. And I just it just messes with my head a lot and makes me feel like I should have done different and I should have, you know, played both sides and like helped her as much as I could while at the same time raising her daughter and doing everything that I'm doing. But I don't, it's it's been really hard, you know. Haley and I have had our ups and downs in our friendships, but we've had a lot of really good times together, you know. She was is an amazing person. And like I said, her smile could light up the room, and she was funny, and she was, you know, a really good friend and always there to help you if needed. And it's just it's been really hard.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Is there anything that you wanted to share or anything that you wanted to say that we did not give you an opportunity to say?

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Just that, you know, we need answers. We need, you know, she has three girls that are missing their mom, you know. They they deserve answers, her mom deserves answers, her family deserves answers, you know. It's she wasn't just another, you know, drug addict, somebody with mental health issues that had gone missing. Like she was an is an amazing person, you know. She has family and friends and people that love her, and we just want answers.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Our purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family, and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode resonated with you, we encourage you to subscribe, leave a review, and share the podcast so these important stories continue to be heard. Together, we can preserve their memories and ensure their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for cases we should cover or questions about what you heard, you can connect with us through our Facebook group, Tragedy a True Crime Podcast, on X at Tragedy Podcast, by email at TragedyAtrue Crime Podcast at gmail.com, or by visiting our website www.tragedyatrucrime podcast.com. Thank you for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.