SPEAKER_00 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Today we are joined by Julia Cowley, a former FBI profiler. During her career, Julia helped analyze violent criminal behavior and consulted on complex investigations, bringing behavioral science, psychology, and real-world experience to cases where answers were often unclear and stakes were incredibly high. She's also the host of the consult, where she and her co-hosts break down true crime cases through a behavioral lens, cutting through speculation, and focusing on what the behavior actually tells us. Today we're talking with Julia about how behavior analysis really works, what the public often gets wrong about profiling, and how investigators think about cases, especially when answers are hard to come by. Julia, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Thank you for having me and congratulations. Um, you're coming up on your 50th episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah, this is the 50th, is one of the reasons we invited you because um we owe we owe a lot of our success to you. So we were we were brand new podcasters and we were really trying to trying to figure out what we wanted to do. And somehow Lisa managed to get a hold of you and get on your show. I believe we were episode 99. That's right. And um everything blew up from there. We kind of understood more by um you know what we were learning from listening to you, what we learned after that show, and then you know, taking feedback from our listeners and what they were really responding to. And so um, you really helped us get there and get us focused. And I we I I I can't be more appreciative.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yep. Oh, well, you're welcome. So what I enjoyed about talking with you is that we're not an investigative podcast. We don't go out and do interviews the way that you do on your show and talk to family. That's not what we do. We try to recreate what we did when we were in the behavioral analysis unit by talking with investigators and analyzing the investigation and the behavior that we see in that. So that was how I viewed you, sort of as the investigators. And you came on my show to talk about um your family members' case. And so I really enjoy helping other people who are doing the investigations.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yes, and we I can tell the community and uh the family is just so grateful for you allowing us to bring that story back into the public eye. And um, because of that, we've been able to, we think, make some really good straits in the right direction to move the case forward towards some sort of a resolution. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to help in any investigation that I can. I mean, as you know, you were lacking some of the key details for us to do a complete profile, but I wanted you to come on, not only because of your show, but also to highlight Jody's case.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

And it's been super helpful because one of the one of the things Elise and I talk about quite a bit is while the goal is to solve, you know, solve some of these crimes or some of these missing persons cases, you know, we can't focus on just that because these are really difficult and they're they're you know, they lack a lot of information that makes that possible. But if we can do anything to at least edge it forward, um, that's considered a win.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yeah, I think keeping a spotlight on cases like that is the win. It's you know, sometimes all that we can do. Good reminder.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Thank you for that. So we would really like to know how you got to where you are. So how did you enter into the field of law enforcement?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Well, it's a long story. No, not really. I was a true crime, an avid true crime reader. And my mother, I think I've told this story before. So some of my listeners will know this story, but my mother was reading the book Helter Skelter about the Manson murders. And I thought it looked interesting. She told me I was not allowed to read it. It was too grown up for me to read or understand and that I might be traumatized. And after she finished the book, I did take it and read it. And I can't say I wasn't traumatized or it didn't somehow damage me for life, but I just I was hooked from that point forward on reading true crime. And I would go to the bookstore and pick out like five books at a time and read them all. And it got to the point where I'd go to the bookstore, the library, I read all the true crime books. And I just knew when it came time to decide what I wanted to do with my life when I was going to college, I knew I wanted to do something that helped solve murders, and I didn't know what that would be. And back in my day, and I don't know if you guys are quite my age, but we had these big books. They were about the thickness of a phone book, and they had all the different college majors, and I was just kind of reading through it, trying to decide what do I want to do with my life. And I found a major that was called police science, which was basically what we know today to be forensic science, where you go to the laboratory and analyze evidence in the laboratory. And I thought, that's what I want to do. And I, you know, my path was majoring in chemistry, and I did that, and I got up my batch or my master's degree in forensic science. And then uh make a long story short, I was very fortunate to get a job at with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, working in their crime lab. And part of that was also going out to crime scenes, to homicide scenes, and processing those scenes. So collecting evidence from that scene, documenting the scenes, preserving evidence. And I loved doing that. And I did that for a few years. And then I had a colleague who um had joined the FBI. And by this point, I'd seen The Silence of the Lambs and I'd read John Douglas's book, Mindhunter. I thought that's what I want to do. I want to be an FBI profiler. So I joined the FBI, hoping to be an FBI profiler, but also realizing I might not ever get that opportunity because it's a pretty competitive position. There's not a lot, it's not very big, not a very big unit as compared to the rest of the FBI. So uh I knew I might not ever get that opportunity, but uh eventually I did. I was an agent for about 10, 11 years. And um, at that point, I was what they would consider more qualified because you have to be a good investigator to get an opportunity to be in the behavioral analysis unit. And that takes many, many years. So about that point in my career, I applied to be in the crimes against adults unit, and I was selected, and that's how I got there. And I worked there, and then I retired, and then I did my podcast. So that's all very long story short, or maybe not so short.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

You hit on a lot of things that I think just those of us who are consumers of true crime are familiar with books and TV shows and all these things that are out there that, you know, talk about how the behavioral analysis unit quote goes. And so we see these things, but we would really like to know, given your experience, what is the biggest misconception that people have about the work that is done in the behavioral analysis unit?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

I think there's a lot of misconceptions. And so one of them, I think, is that when you're in the behavioral analysis unit, I think this comes from the TV show, Criminal Minds, that you're out there doing the investigations. And you're not. We're not investigators anymore. I mean, we certainly have a strong investigative background, and that's the benefit of having a profiler, is that we all have very strong investigative backgrounds. We were investigators long for a long period of time before we joined the unit. But we, once we become a profiler, you're a consultant. And so you are reviewing other investigations and advising. And we don't take those investigations or take them over. We don't conduct any investigative work, we don't conduct interviews, we don't make arrests anymore. We're really just consultants. And so I think that's a big misconception that the FBI is going to come in, they're gonna take over the case and run it from there. That that's not what happens. We advise, we give our analysis, and investigators can take it or leave it because it's their investigation, it remains their investigation. So I think that's one misconception. I think another big misconception about profiling is that it can identify offenders and in that it solves cases, and neither one of those are true. We assist, we maybe provide clarity or better understanding, but we don't, you know, profilers don't solve the cases and we don't identify the offenders. We may, you know, identify characteristics of the offenders, but we can't ever say with certainty, oh, this person did it 100%. That's the job of the investigator is to prove their case. So those are a couple of the misconceptions that I can think of. And we don't fly on a, we don't fly on the plane either. We don't have a private plane. I think that's another one. I wish, but no.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Um in in missing person cases, um, what behavioral clues are are either misunderstood or overlooked?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Well, I think that in many missing person cases, a lot of times it's not investigated as foul play right off the bat. And that could be for a number of reasons. They may have information that somebody is a habitual runaway or they're very high risk, or you don't have a last known location. But I think it's really important that when you have a case that comes to your attention and as an investigator or as an agency, and you don't know with certainty that there has been a homicide, that you investigated as a homicide just from the beginning, and you process the scenes and things like that. And I think that is probably um something that doesn't always get done. And so by the time you realize that maybe a person who has gone missing has met with foul play, you you have lost all that time and all that evidence that could have been collected from the get-go. And, you know, best case scenario, it doesn't turn out to be a homicide, but you should always treat it as a homicide unless you have really good information that it's not for some reason. But if you just don't know when somebody disappears and that is unusual for them, and the family is saying, This is doesn't happen, this is not what this person does, then treat it like it's there's some foul play involved. You know, you you can't go back and get that evidence if you don't get it from the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

It's very interesting that you started talking about um early on and the difference between a voluntary, we'll call it a voluntary disappearance versus maybe a foul play situation. This has come up in several of the stories that we are talking about. And as we first enter into our stories and meet our families, we'll see things on like missing persons, flyers that are putting up pretty early on in the investigation. We'll say like missing under suspicious circumstances or, you know, foul play is on they won't say on the table, but it will indicate something about foul play. And we also will have seen that in some of our FOIAs. So I'm just wondering how do investigators distinguish in those really early, early on days of a disappearance between a potential voluntary disappearance and foul play?

SPEAKER_02 13:03

I think a lot of it has to do with the victimology, understanding the victim, their lifestyle, their habits, their contacts, what did they do day to day? Are they reliable? Are they not? You know, all those things are really important. I think trying to determine, too, their last known location, where were they last seen? And are there any signs that things where they were last seen are not in place as they should be, those types of things. And I think investigators sometimes get a sense like this isn't right. And a lot of times you you have to listen to family members because they know their loved ones the best and they'll know. And you really do have to ask, has this ever happened before? And you ask those tough questions that you know it's not to blame the victims, but they are sensitive questions. These are things that are really important to know. And the more you understand about that missing person, the more you can understand the possibility of what could have happened to them. And you have to remember too, even if they are very high risk, that also puts them at high risk for violent victimization. So many times, people who have high-risk behavior or high-risk lifestyles, they sort of get written off because, oh, they're, you know, they're not usually home at this time anyway. But that just puts them even more at risk of being victimized in some way, shape, or form, which is why vulnerable victims are targeted.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

And you have done a great job of even thinking about our next kind of thing that we wanted to discuss is how do we support families who are in this situation? Like, is there advice that you can give to our families who are navigating unresolved cases?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

So that's a very tough thing to do because every family is different, every person is different, everybody processes information differently. So I can't, I don't think there's one thing to do that you can support families. And and and it also depends, are you uh supporting them as a from the law enforcement side of things or from the podcaster side of things? Um, but what I found is that it really depends on the person. Sometimes they want to talk, they want to talk a lot, they want to uh vent, and other times some people it's too much for them, they don't want to talk. So you just sort of have to figure out the best way for that person to how to navigate that particular situation. And it can be very difficult because sometimes when you have a case and let's say somebody's gone missing, and let let's say they they are found deceased, and law enforcement is saying this was not foul play was not involved, that can be very difficult for families as well to accept that. And that creates a whole other set of um you know set of circumstances that you have to deal with and navigate with that particular family or family member. Um, and I've seen so many different situations of how families process grief and loss and and crises. It it there's just no one way because there's no verified response to grief or trauma. There's there's not.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, it's whenever you're and I was listening to speak about that, you know, one of the things that we've talked about quite a bit is when we do these interviews, it's always interesting to me that, you know, we find ourselves kind of having to navigate between, okay, what's true and um and rooted in fact and then what's really based on emotional response, whether it's grief, whether it's guilt, and then you know, try to find some kind of consistency there so we can understand not only how to tell their story, but also how we can help them once we've told that story.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And, you know, I I think a lot about, you know, I used to I've interviewed a lot of victims of sexual assault. And one of the things as an investigator, what we learn is that you want to try to avoid making that victim repeat their story over and over again because that can be re-traumatizing. But what I found is that you do have some victims who do want to continue to talk. They it's for them, that's how they're processing it. So it you just can't say, okay, for every person dealing with grief and trauma and loss, this is the way you deal with them. You really have to get to know that person and figure out what do they need? What is the best way that I can make this as easy for them as possible while also still trying to get the information I need from them to help them and to help their loved one that may be missing or deceased?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Do you ever find, or let me rephrase it a different way? What mistakes have you seen families or even the public, I guess, make when interpreting behavior after someone specifically has been missing? Um I guess maybe that's more of a community sort of question. Where can we do better to support our communities? So what the question is, what have I seen go wrong? What mistakes do the family or the public make when interpreting behavior after a disappearance? Like I'm talking, I guess, specifically about like social media, things that people say when they go on the news.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

So I, you know, I don't want to be critic critical of any families because I think they're just trying to do their best. But what I see mostly is the public and they jump to conclusions and make inferences about a family or a situation that they have just a snippet of information about. I mean, these families have years and years and years of history and relationships and it and to just jump to these conclusions because you see one interview and you have a little bit of information. Oh, you know, this person's responsible or that person seems strange, and then jumping to conclusions that are not handling their grief the way a normal person would handle it. And I think that is the biggest thing that I see, and it's it is it is re-traumatizing people that are going through a very difficult time to jump to these conclusions as public. I mean, we don't know, we don't have all the information that investigators have, that the family members have, and we're making snap decisions about something that we're we're looking at a very just a segment of this person's the probably the worst thing they've ever gone through. And we're seeing that, and we're making judgments on that without knowing the the entire situation. So that's really would be I think is the biggest mistake. And when I think when the public does that, when we see stuff like that on social media, that can make the investigation all that more difficult for not only the the investigators that are conducting the work, but also for the families as well. I mean, they're dealing with enough. And um, so that's what I would say is my biggest mistake. I can't I can't really think of mistakes that families make. Um you know, they they're just trying for the most part to navigate a very difficult situation and to have set expectations of well, how they should act or what's the best thing that they should do is really hard. I mean, the only thing I can say is just, you know, try to give as much information to law enforcement as possible and answer all their questions, even if those questions make the missing person look bad, make you look bad, just be as honest as possible.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Interesting. So kind of related to that, I guess, would be um regarding the true crime media itself. You know, how do you think things like you know, podcasting and you know, other types of true crime media has helped investigations and even how has it harmed it?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Well, I think it can be very helpful, obviously, or I wouldn't be doing a podcast. It can be educational, which is what we try to do. It can bring attention to cases that are lesser known. It can reinvigorate investigations. Sometimes, sometimes the public, if we're focused on a case, law enforcement does take note. And they're like, oh, I, you know, I want to take a look at that case. Because what we have to remember is that the investigators, especially cold case, cold cases, they have other work that they're doing. And sometimes it does take a family member or some media to draw attention to a case where they go pull it and then let me take a look at this and go through it. And they realize, okay, there's some things I can do. There are some things that weren't done at the time. There's some technology that has advanced that can help me. So I think that is the good side of true crime. The bad side of true crime is there's a lot. Certainly some of some of what I've already talked about, speculation and and I don't want to say all speculation is bad because we speculate on our show as well. But accusing people of crimes or victim blaming or interfering in a case that's really actively being investigated or something that's going to go to trial. And I think the the thing that you you always have to keep in mind when you're covering these cases is what if it were my loved one? And you you have that experience that you firsthand know what it's like. Um, but that's how you have to think about as a creator. That's how I think about what if it were my loved one, would I want this said about them? Would I want this approach taken? Um, you know, that's how you have to think about it. And I know as, you know, looking, you know, when I try to think about how I want to approach a case, I know, okay, if if one, let's say somebody I loved was a victim of violent crime or missing or dead, I would want as much attention on that case as possible. And um that would that would be my preference, and I would want that. Um, what I wouldn't want would be crime scene photos or autopsy photos splashed uh um through, you know, on social media or on the internet, you know, things like that. Um, so that's how I look at how I want to do my show. So for example, we don't ever post you know photos um, you know, of crime scene photos or anything like that. I've made that decision. Um and and I try to think about every time I cover a case, how would I feel if this were my loved one? And so when I do the show, we have a lot of you know funny moments in our work. We've had I've had a great career. It's not all doom and gloom. I've really had some great times. I love my colleagues. We have lots of laughs, but now that we're doing the show in public, I'm really careful about any kind of humor in our show because I don't want, even if it's not related to anything, it's just a lighthearted moment on our show because we are human and we have those moments, you know, we're recording for four or five hours at a time, and something may happen and we laugh, or um, but I am really careful because I'm always thinking to myself, I wouldn't want a family member to to think that we think anything is funny when we're covering the case. And so those are like decisions, those are like editing decisions too. I gotta take that out, you know, because I don't want them to think that we lost focus or um we don't care. We think anything is funny. Um, you know, I take that very seriously, even though we do have our light-hearted moments. So we have I don't know if that answers your question. Absolutely, it absolutely does. I can tell it's been a process, you know, too. Like how I want, you know, I knew from the beginning this is a serious show and we're gonna keep it serious. Um, but as I've gone along, I've thought, okay, this is I, you know, you have a decision to make, and this is the path I want to take versus this is the path I'm going to take. So it's just been a process of how I really want my show to come across and how I want it to be perceived. I mean, I have had listeners that that actually like our show, but then say, well, but I tell people you might find it kind of boring. And then the person apologized to me. Like, and I said, No, I I understand that, I appreciate that because we are not sensational. And if people find us boring a little bit, then we're not the show for them.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

It's it's interesting you said that too, because we've we've had this conversation lots of times. And you know, I do all the editing, the music, everything like that. And you know, I'm even thinking about, okay, I want to be careful with that. This is a sensitive subject. I'm thinking about timing, even music selection that I choose and that we add to the show. I was always very particular about it, can't be too update. You know, we get you can't you can you gotta make sure that you understand our subject and even some of the timing of the questions, I'll even alter the timing to make sure that it's comes across as sensitive as we wanted it to sound. And um, it's all important. And it and the same thing, and I actually had there's someone who gave us feedback one time that said, you need to get more into the blood and gore of what you're talking about to make it more interesting. And I'm like, well, you're you're not you're not my audience then, because that's not that's not what we're interested in. And we're interested in helping people and telling their story and giving them a platform to be able to say that person's name because that's a very important part of the grief that's associated with these cases.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, I have to weigh as well, because sometimes we do have to talk about the specific injuries because it's important, like the order that they occurred, or um, you know, do we think that there was escalation? Are there defensive wounds? Like all of that is really important when we're interpreting the behavior. So we do talk about the injuries. We try not to be gratuitous about it, but it does, it is important to talk about it. And but I'm always, again, conscious that a family member may be listening, you know, when at all possible. And it's not always possible, but I reach out to family members and let them know we're gonna cover the case, or the investigator who had the case may, you know, make that contact for us, just so there's no surprises out there.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

You um talked a lot about um our uh work as creators and how we need to make sure we are protecting our victim victims, potential victims, and our families. We have a an interesting missing persons case where there are several names that come up as being involved with someone who has been missing, and we've made the decision to um not publicize their names yet. And so we're wondering what responsibilities do creators have when discussing suspects or persons of interest?

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, I think we have a great responsibility because we may be wrong. And if we're wrong and we've put out somebody's name like that, then we could cause so much harm for that person for the investigation itself. It could just all sorts of issues. And so, like on our show, if there's a if there's a suspect that's been developed, because some of the cases that we have covered are lesser known and there may be a main suspect, and we don't name them if it's not widely publicized. Um, and there are a lot of cases where the suspect has been widely publicized, and we will talk about that suspect. And so we it's again, it's just kind of a creative decision you have to make. But if if there's a case, if there's like certain information, a suspect's name that is not out there in the public or widely known, we've made the decision not to discuss though that name because what if we're wrong? Um, and we, you know, we we all think we, I don't want to say we all think we know this, but I think generally people get so tied to their theories and their opinions, and they feel like it's justice. I have to get this out here, I have to name this suspect because otherwise justice won't be served. And nobody stops to ever think maybe I could be wrong. And so I think that's what we have to ask ourselves. I'm wrong. Is this the right thing to do?

SPEAKER_00 30:56

And I think that's exactly what happened, Michael, when we were thinking back to that coverage of that case and that decision that we made.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah, I mean, we because we did the interviews, and the person, the very first person we interviewed just came out hot right away and they just names, names, names. And I was like, oh, there's a lot of name calling here without a lot of proof. And so we were like, okay, what do I do with this? And so we made the decision to kind of edit out those names. And then the very next guest came and did the same thing. And then when after that did the same thing, I was like, oh crap. Um, but you know, we taught the law enforcement and we held our to our guns that we're gonna redact these names out of our episode because right now we we don't have any proof, they're just stories.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's a a decision you have to be carefully made. And I think it's good that you ask law enforcement too, because you know, they may not want that person's name out there. And and the that's the one thing we have to be. I know there's there's this need for information out there and that the public has a right to know everything. And and they don't, you know, not if it is going to put a criminal investigation, a homicide investigation, a missing person investigation at risk. They don't need to know it. And so I think making sure that information you are releasing is not going to hurt anything. A lot of times in some of the cases, if we if we didn't profile it, or if if we did, because we'll cover cases that we actually worked on when we were at the BAU and we've covered cases that we didn't work on. And I always make sure that the information, if I think if I have a question about is this public yet, you know, I make sure it is public before I discuss it as well, because I don't want to be the one to release information that um, you know, that hasn't been released already, or that the the investigative agency doesn't want out there.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

I think we've done a better job with building that partnership with law enforcement. We just know it takes time. And and you even hinted at that earlier. You know, you said they are doing other things, right? We're coming in with this singular soul focus. And so we have these moments of frustration and like, oh, it took you know a week for them to get back to us. But you know, we have to remember. So thank you for bringing that back to us. That like this isn't the only thing going on.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

It is hard. Yeah. I mean, they it's not, I mean, I will tell you that I've worked with many local detectives and law enforcement, and I think sometimes there's a misperception, well, they don't care, or and that that is far from my experience. They do care, they care greatly to the point sometimes that it makes them sick. They get, you know, they get sick easily or they get heart, they have heart attacks. I mean, it they do really care and they're extremely busy. And it's, you know, there's a lot of trying to put out fires while also trying to, you know, go back and review files and cold cases. It's, you know, it it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of time. And as you know, like we can have we have the luxury now of just doing like a sole focus on a case. And they don't have that.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, one thing too that you you kind of you know mentioned was we've we've been very, very good in our show to make sure that we anytime we run across a new piece of information or what we perceive as a new piece of information, before we talk about it on the air, we've been going to these various law enforcement agencies and say, hey, you know, we've had a conversation, we wouldn't share with who yet, but you know, this piece of information they gave us is not publicly known and we can't find it anywhere in any files. Is this an interesting piece of information to you or not interesting? And it's been we found it to be a pretty good approach and been a good way to, you know, start building some trust with these organizations to realize that we're interested in more than just you know publishing a show. We're interested in actually helping these people and solving cases.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah. And I think that is a great process that you have because what you are doing, I mean, what I consider, you know, a podcast, especially a podcast such as yours, is you're kind of doing things that you know that they might not have the time to do and you're places that they can't be. It's like you're you're like a source of information for them. They should utilize you. It's like if people are willing to call and talk to you and tell you things that they might not be comfortable talking to law enforcement, that makes you a great source and a great resource for law enforcement. So I think law enforcement should think about that, you know, as people who are gathering information, um, think about utilizing that and to their benefit.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Oh, yeah. And that's, you know, while you're saying that, I'm actually hoping there's a few people with the sheriff's office around here that has tuned in and are listening to this because that's certainly how we're presenting ourselves, and certainly the position we're trying to put us in as far as their investigative strategy for the areas that we are looking at, because that is something that I think is is key. And, you know, we even discussed with, we went and had and did an interview with, I don't know, really an interview, more of a meeting, um, with Walcala County Sheriff's Office, which is which is where the Jodie Kilcore case resides. And that's how we presented it. We're like, you know, we we flat out told him and said, there are people that are willing to come talk to us um that aren't willing to come into this office because you know they haven't had a good experience at law enforcement. I said, at least and I are here because, well, we're not criminals, and so we're we're not doing anything that intimidates us to come into this room. And a lot of people sometimes involved in these cases, well, they they have and they they have a different experience and they don't have that level of comfort and may not be willing to come in and speak about anything.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

So I want to talk, um, just real well, I want to talk about your podcast because it's amazing. Um, what would you hope that your listen yes, you're welcome. What do you want your listeners to take away from the consult?

SPEAKER_02 36:57

I would like them to take away like the and this beyond I'm hoping that someday somebody will hear something and they'll realize, oh, I know who did it, and they'll call in a name. Besides that, you know, bringing attention to um um cases and but educating people about behavioral analysis, what it can and what it can't do. I've already talked about it's like we're not out there identifying offenders or solving cases, um, you know, demystifying what some you know Hollywood has portrayed in movies and TV, which I love by the way. I love all the movies and TVs, shows about the FBI and and profiling. I don't have any issues with that, but I think people get um the wrong idea sometimes of what we actually do. So just educating people about behavior and how complex it can be, and how you know we can all have different perspectives and still politely have discussions and disagree with one another, and still at the end of the day, have a tremendous amount of respect for one another as well. So I think it's just a combination. And that last one has developed over time because as I got into the true crime genre, which I thought I was really plugged in, but I didn't really realize how uh how much vitriol was out there with people who disagree and how much hatred and anger that I see on social media because two people don't agree about something. And so as I've done this show, I've just realized, gosh, none of you know, we don't always agree on our show. I mean, we've all had, you know, we all have different backgrounds, we have different perspectives that we bring. We have uh much of the same training. So a lot of the concepts we know how to apply, we know statistics and things like that, but we don't always see things the same way. And yet we can have really meaningful discussions with one another. And those discussions, rather than create anger and disrespect for one another, they really just bring us closer together and make us respect each other even more. And so that's, I think, one of the things I thought. I hope people see that in our show, that we can have these disagreements, but still have really productive and meaningful conversations about these cases.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Did any um case fundamentally change how you see people or human behavior?

SPEAKER_02 39:39

I will say, and I'll just I always go back to this, and I don't know if this will fully answer your question, but this is something very specific. But when I was profiling the East Area Rapist case, which is um East Area Rapist original Night Stalker, the offender became known as the Golden State Killer. So um one of the things that I learned, a concept that I learned that I have applied to many, many cases, is that sometimes you see behavior and it's not always what you think. So, for example, you know, in the Golden State Killer case, he was a burglar. He be he started out as a burglar. And what I learned through that case is that there's a strong correlation between uh burglary and sexual aggression. And you see this, and you see this in a lot of serial killers, not all of them. And so what I learned and what I took from that, and I think this is the case that made me see all other cases in a different light, is that you may not have something, some behavior that's overt. You have to really dig deep and think about, okay, what is this act, this behavior actually satisfying? Is it for financial gain? Is it for sexual gratification? Is it for control, dominant? I mean, you're really trying to just dig deep in the underlying behavior. So something on that surface that may not appear, let's say, sexual in nature, may very well be sexual in nature. And I think that is the case that really drove that home to me. So I started looking at every other case much differently, like really trying to understand that underlying behavior and what need is it's servicing. And it's not always what it may appear on the surface.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

I I'm just over here, like nodding my head, you know, in a smaller format of that. I used to do that in my previous work. You know, I'm trying to support students who might have unique learning needs, and people are like, well, they're sleeping in class because XYZ. And I'm like, well, maybe that's not why they're sleeping in class. Maybe there's something else. Right. So it it's it's a similar process, just at a different level for sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

When I think about the case that I learned the most from, it's that one. I learned so much from that. Um, and then there's other little things that I learned along the way. And, you know, just as you go, you start, you get a case, like let's say you have um, you know, multiple victims. Okay, so do you have multiple offenders or not? And you start realizing, okay, what are the statistics? What's the research say? What is my own experience? What can I say anecdotally? What have my other colleagues, colleagues experienced? And so you start kind of applying these concepts to each and every case that you work. And so I think um every single case has like some moment like that where you learn something and you're like, okay, I'm gonna take what I learned from this case and take that forward because it's likely to apply to another case at some point.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

I just want to talk a little bit about what we have learned from you. And we call it quote, channeling our inner Julia. And we do that when we have things where people will say, like, that's a coincidence. And then we go, Oh, what would Julia say? Julie would say there are no coincidences. And it just really helps us. But there can be, yes, generally. I can't, I mean, it comes up pretty frequently. I mean, we discuss our cases in the same way that I would imagine you do, you know, with your co-hosts and while we're on our walks and those kinds of things. And then we're like, okay, what is this really about? Are is this a coincidence? Probably not. Um, and then the other thing that really sticks with us that you uh have spoken um about in the past is, you know, through this work of creating and supporting families, just it's not possible to make everyone happy. And so I'm like, ooh, do we want to say that? And that might upset somebody. But if it's an important piece of the story and may move something forward, like sometimes things. Things just have to be said, even though there may be some hesitation. So I'm those are our our learnings from you. Unless Michael, do you have another one that we have to do?

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Oh, you definitely won't make everyone happy. If you if you try, you'll you'll kill yourself trying because it's impossible. Um, you know, it's and you don't if you if you are, then you're not doing something right. You're not doing it right, you know. And you have to, you know, all we can do is, you know, be honest. This is our perspective, this is what we know, here's what research tells us, here's what the statistics tell us. That's all we can do. There's we can't really do anything more than that. And we can't betray that either, just to fit someone's theory or narrative. We have to stick to what we know. And we could be wrong, but if you stick to what you know, if you stick to your experience and you stick to the what's most probable, um, you're you're more likely to be right than if you just go along with you know what a popular theory is or sensational theory. But um, and and when you do that, you're definitely not gonna make everyone happy. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Well, I I learned something new today, and I'm honestly I'm a little bit disappointed. Um, but Julia's saying that X-Files isn't real, and um I'm I'm very disappointed because I'm such a huge X-Files fan. That's true. And um, you're telling me that's not how that that's not how that works, and that's that's just you've you've ruined 10 years of my life. Um Agent Moulder following that show.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Yeah, I I love that show too. So yeah, I like all the shows. I'm not um you know, I know like some people say, oh, if they you know, if they're in the medical field, they can't watch a medical show, like it drives them crazy, but that I don't feel that way. I can really suspend disbelief. And after a while, I'm like, wait a second, I don't think that could really happen.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yes, that's what happens over here too.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

It'd be like you know, I'll tell you, I'll I'll tell you the one thing. This is and this is gonna ruin everything for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

So, because it it does for me, okay. So in my opinion, if you fire a gun without ear protection, at least for me, this has happened. There was an accidental discharge, I didn't have ear protection on, and not me, it wasn't mine, by the way. Good clarifier. I just, yeah, wait a second. But it my ears rang for days. I I wasn't too far away from the gun that went off accidentally, and I did not have ear protection on my I could not hear anything for days, and I just kept thinking, all these TV shows where they have these gun fights and they're inside and they're you know, like how um, you know, how can they hear anything? You know, so I just you know it ruined the TV for me. They always I always catch that. I'm like, they can't hear, they couldn't be talking and whispering after that gunfight.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

You see, and I'm the person who counts the shots, and I'm like, well, he shot 87 times and he hasn't reloaded, so that doesn't feel very realistic.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

You know, they're supposed to be very good at shooting their weapon and be like, how do they miss? Like they're not good at that.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Oh, you can't, yeah. So that I think that's a little bit of a myth. Like if you're under a high stress situation, like we were just talking about this in our latest um episodes because it was a killing that was very up close. And people think, oh, if you're up close, you're surely not gonna miss. But because it's such a high stress situation, we train for it in the FBI because most gunfights are you know start at least within a few feet. And so in the FBI, we would train to you know draw our weapon as quickly as possible, shoot one-handed, and you're like maybe five feet from the target. And they re the reason why we have to practice that is because even at that close range, people can miss. And so they want you to be very proficient if you have to fire at that close range.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

So it makes a lot of sense, and you know, I think Lisa knows where I'm going with this story. Um I used to take her to the range quite a bit, and I I found something about her shooting habits that uh it's it's it's it's just really interesting because if she she picks up the gun, she pulls the trigger, the very first shot is dead center. It is absolutely dead center. Everything else doesn't even hit the target. And so I always joke is if you can survive her first shot, the safest spot is just stand right in front of her because she's never gonna hit you again.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

We I did not You know why that is tell us because that first shot, you're not anticipating anything, so you're not like you know, anticipating the yeah, flinching, because you start to flinch and stuff, and that's where you know, even the slightest movement, you could, you know, you won't be on target, you know, it doesn't matter. So you you have to just practice very, you know, with our instructors used to say smooth and slow, smooth and slow. And then as you get smoother, you get faster. And so it's really just about, you know, once you fire, that usually your first shot, if you've never shot a gun, is usually dead center because you're not expecting anything. And then the next couple of shots you realize, oh, there's a kickback, and you start anticipating that. So you maybe drop your muzzle a little bit and things like that, and that messes you all up. So the trick is just to completely relax and not anticipate anything. In fact, when you pull that trigger, this is you know, in practice, obviously. So when you pull that trigger, um, the gun going off should be kind of a surprise. You're just you know pulling that trigger back slow, slow, slow until the gun goes off. And no jerking.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

That makes tons of sense.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Um and I'm not I'm not an expert in firearms, this is what I was taught. And it worked for me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Um, yeah, the the other stories, I I got in trouble for this one, so I'll I'll share this one quickly. Is but I I had been showing her how to, you know, handle a you know, uh a larger handgun, things like that for comb protection. And um, I'd always given her 38 rounds in my 357, and so one day I decided I'm gonna put a 357 around her so she can experience a difference, and I didn't tell her. And um, she pulled the trigger one time and then she dropped it, and she's like, I'm never coming to the shooting range with you again.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Apparently, you're not supposed to drop it. These are things I I learned. I had no experience with firearms at all until we met. It's just not something we have.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yeah, yeah, if you've never shot a weapon before. I did I drop that sucker. Yeah, it can be surprising. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

And she she learned what you know being married to someone from the south is because I've had a gun in my hand for since I was, I don't know, 10.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Yeah. And law enforcement near family.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Very, very, I'm just very familiar.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah, for sure. So where can our listeners find the consult?

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Anywhere they get their podcasts. You were on Apple, Spotify, you know, uh good pod, everything, anywhere. I can't I can't think of all of them. I feel bad that I can't think of every. And you're on X, yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

I I've seen you there.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Yes, um, I'm on X. Um, at the Consult Pod is our handle on all social media. So X, um Instagram, Threads, and Blue Sky. I think that's all. I'm I'm not I don't do TikTok. Um, yeah, so at the consult pod and um what else? Am I on anything else? I think that's it. That's enough for me.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

There's the Facebook group as well. That's how I actually was able to connect with him. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

I forgot we're on Facebook as well, at the consult pod, and then we have a Facebook fan page called Unsubs. So um that's where the fans can go and talk about our episodes and other true crime things. So it's a good group. Yes, I think it's a good thing. It's a really good group of people. Yes. Yeah, they're really polite and nice, and you know, you go to other groups and they can get mean. Not our group.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

We've noticed.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Totally. I I you drop out of, I just, you know, yeah. I'm not in there to, you know, fight with people, argue. Same.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Our purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family, and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode resonated with you, we encourage you to subscribe, leave a review, and share the podcast so these important stories continue to be heard. Together, we can preserve their memories and ensure their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for cases we should cover or questions about what you heard, you can connect with us through our Facebook group, Tragedy a True Crime Podcast, on X at Tragedy Podcast, by email at TragedyAtrue Crime Podcast at gmail.com, or by visiting our website www.tragedyatrucrimepodcast.com. Thank you for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.