SPEAKER_04 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

We'd like to welcome the Cold Case Collective at Spark of Hudson, where thoughtful crowdsourcing helps generate new momentum in unresolved cases. Today we're gathering around the table for a focused and respectful discussion on the disappearance of Audrey Heron. This isn't speculation for the sake of noise, it's conversation grounded in facts, perspective, and purpose. Around this table, we examine what we know, question what we don't, and keep Audrey at the center of the discussion. Together we work to keep these stories from being forgotten. Thank you, Jess and the team for being here and welcome to the show. Thank you for having us. All right. We would like to get started by having you tell us a little bit about what you do in the Cold Case Collective, how you support your community, and how you came to learn about Audrey's case.

SPEAKER_08 1:43

Sure. So we are a group of local community members that gather every other Monday at the Spark of Hudson in Hudson, New York. The Spark of Hudson is a learning hub that has been open for about the past two years. And the ethos of the building and the organization is being together and learning about a common thing. So something that we're all interested in. And so we're actually just a town over from where Audrey was last seen. And so the club kind of originated a little over a year ago. I have always been interested in um true crime, but also about victim advocacy and about keeping people's stories alive. And started, put out a little advertisement for a club to gather like-minded people to talk about cases, some that maybe haven't been solved, or cases of underrepresented people and communities. And so to my amazing surprise, we had so many community members come to the first meeting, people from all different occupations and backgrounds, all local, some in Hudson, some from outside towns. And we've been meeting for over a year. We've had a lot of really cool guests from the community, local law enforcement. Um we've had um a cadaver dog come in to learn about that process of it was really cool about using dogs in investigation. We have had our the Columbia County Sheriff, um, Jackie Salvatore, come to speak with us. Um, and when we started, one of the first cases that we all were really drawn to was the disappearance of Audrey Mayheron, um, being that it's super close to where we are. And it's still kind of in the thread of any anyone here, even though she went missing, you know, many years ago at this point. When you talk about it, everyone has a memory of either where they were, when they learned about the case. I have people that I know that had connections to her and her family. Um, so it still feels very fresh in this area, and people are still very much um interested and looking for her and interested in the case. And so the club itself, we've been kind of investigating it and discussing it at our club meetings. And then we found your podcast, which covered, which was one of the first actual kind of newer pieces of media on Audrey's case that we had found. Um, so that kind of gave us more of a jumping off point and more insight um from like primary sources of people you've interviewed, which has been so helpful in helping us learn more about the case. Um, but yeah, Cold Case Collective meets Mondays and it's really about bringing victim stories to the forefront.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

I would love for you to tell us how you found us.

SPEAKER_08 5:05

Yeah. Um, I actually found you guys through one of our other who was the one who found this podcast, if you're on this Zoom.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Maybe evidently it's a mystery.

SPEAKER_08 5:17

Maybe this is another mystery. I mean who's Colleen?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Let's dig into that.

SPEAKER_08 5:21

Oh, Colleen. So Colleen isn't here with us on this Zoom. Um, but Colleen is a longtime member who's been with us since the first meeting. And she found this podcast um kind of through just, I think, doing some research about the case. And our assignment was we had to listen to everything. And we were immediately like amazed by how much information we learned, and then how many more questions came up um about the case because it feels like you're really being led in so many different directions. Um, and there's so many different theories and unanswered questions about the case. But, you know, your episodes were super helpful to hear from Audrey's friends and um her daughter. It were just amazing. Um, and so we're really happy we found you guys.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Yeah, thank you. I mean, we're still relatively new, not even coming up on a year. And so I it's I'm I'm glad that people are doing some searching and we're popping up as an option because, you know, the more people we have listening and the more connects we can make, like we are making with you, then the more our victim stories, um, their names are said and we give our their families hope.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

100%. And so one of the things that, you know, what's always what's been amazing, this journey we've been on is this originally started out with just the case of my uncle who was murdered, and we were only going to do six episodes and provide that to the family. And then as soon as we finished that, you know, those six episodes, we started getting a phone call, and then we got another, and then another after that. And so we kind of stumbled in to it became obvious to us that there was a a missing, un you know, marginalized group um that was severely underrepresented as far as getting their names out there. And one of the things I just said this on another episode the other day that hasn't published yet, but one of the things that's occurred to me through through this and why it's so important is because whenever, you know, whenever you pass away or you disappear or you die, you you actually die twice. And what happens is you you die when that happened, whatever happened to you, and then you die the last person someone said the last time someone said your name. And so the purpose of this is to keep that from happening. And so, and we're gonna keep saying these people's names as long as we can.

SPEAKER_08 7:31

Totally. Yeah, we're in total agreement with that view of thinking too. And yeah, it's been the podcast itself has been just super, super informative. And really, um, I was shocked when you guys told me you were such a new podcast because it's so um, it's so well done. And it was so great to have something that was so local to hear about. Because you know, you listen to cases and maybe you feel um a bit removed. But when you were describing locations and um people and areas, I you, you know, we painted a really you painted a really good picture because we're all we're all really in this area and you did a good job.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

It's funny that you say that because we stumbled on that idea um probably at our last round table because remember, Kate said one of the things that she appreciated that we did is we paint a picture of the location. So it's very understandable about what people are experiencing that even just live there. And I spend a great deal of time using mapping software and kind of understanding where things are laid out. So whenever whenever we do start to talk about it, we actually have something, a good understanding of the layout lay of the land, so to speak.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

All right. Aurelia, you're ready to get into it?

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So, Jess, we're going to turn it over to you and you can lead us from here. Awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 8:55

So we have a bunch of questions um that we've gathered um from listening to, you know, your episodes and also the case itself. Um, and I'm gonna invite the community, the collective to start asking some of these questions.

SPEAKER_07 9:12

So one of the first questions that we have is so this case is almost 24 years old. And I believe Audrey had a cell phone, but there was no way of tracking it back then, no way of having those towers paying. So, what new technology can help us? Because this search is still ongoing, and is there any way to use AI to search for her face in older new photos?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

That's a great question. I'll start out with some of the technology then versus now. And so I'm gonna date myself here, unfortunately, because I used to have a bag phone. And so a lot of people say, well, it's a cell phone, it's still gonna be tracked, but bag phones were actually managed by the individuals quite differently. Like today, we we leave our cell phone on all the time. In fact, I would say you probably when's the last time you've actually turned your phone off. It just doesn't happen. Back then, bag phones, they would the batteries would die pretty fast. And so therefore, a lot of people, they only turned the phone on if they were actively using it. And so if you had it in the car, it wouldn't actually matter because it's likely turned off. And there was just no, there was no way to track things. So it's unless they had it on, it would just, it's it's just not reasonable. As far as AI, one of the things that we do quite a bit whenever we're deciding which cases we're taking on, is we use AI quite a bit to kind of analyze, you know, what we can find out, who the family members are, where they worked. It's it's actually shocking to realize what the you know, what's in the simple as ChatGPT can actually show you regarding any of these cases. And so a lot of times we'll start there and then figure out, okay, what's missing. And so regarding how AI is used to further more the analytical side, that's something we haven't toyed around with too much. Um instead, we've opted to bring in um subject matter experts, for instance. And so, like, you know, if we have a 911 call or if we have a you know written something that was written by the victim or written by what we believe is one of the people of interest, we have a person that we contact and they go through it and then they look for deception. And so therefore we kind of identify and analyze those pieces of information that way. I don't know if he uses AI in some capacity, you know, I probably should ask Jack that. It's actually a good question. And but as far as us, that's what we're doing. And there's tons of technology opportunities out there. And my recommendation, what I've been telling people, even funny enough, at work, is a lot of people use chat GPT just on the surface, and you actually have the ability to create your own chat bot system. And so I do this for work and personal. Like for instance, I'm a data architect where I'm at, but I'm the only data architect. And so what I've done is created a chat bot that I've taught how to be a data architect. And so, therefore, whenever I do searches with that particular bot, then now suddenly I'm getting much more um relevant responses and much more frankly help, like talking to a colleague. And so I think there's definitely opportunity for that to reach out in the true crime world. And now that I've said it out loud, maybe I should create a chat bot for our true crime episodes because I haven't actually done that yet.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

And this is what comes out of the round table on the first question. I do want to respond to the question about maybe advances in technology, but from a different perspective. So you all are aware that Bill McIntosh and his organization and Adventures with Purpose have been up in that area several times doing a lot of searches for Audrey and or her vehicle. I was watching um a YouTube video that Adventures with Purpose just put up a couple of days ago. And when they were talking about one of the reasons why they are successful when maybe law enforcement isn't, is because specifically about the advanced technology that Bill and Adventures with Purpose have over what law enforcement necessarily may not have. And although I realize, you know, it has been several years, the technology as far as searching in water and topography and things like that has advanced. And you all listened to our episode that we did with Bill. And I do know that Bill is planning coming back up there in the actual near future once things thaw out. Has been speaking with several family members and making a plan to go and search some of the places that either Hay has searched before, but he has newer technology or places that have not been accessible yet. So there's advances in technology on his end as well that may be supportive in some way.

SPEAKER_08 13:34

That's really great to hear. And it makes me think too about how ways that we can kind of integrate workshops around this topic into our collective. It makes me think, yeah, are there ways that we could get some kind of local, someone in law enforcement and see it, are they utilizing it at the local level? Um, or is it something that, you know, we'd have to find a someone higher up? But I'm curious if that's something that we could, you know, find someone that could speak to us more about that at the club. Because since we love having guests at the at the collective.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Oh, yeah, definitely say like we can connect them with Bill and see if he can meet with them while he's in New York. Um, because one of the conversations that I thought was really compelling when we interviewed him is he talked about how they've really dialed in all the different technology and methods and processes that they use, and that they've noticed they've been so effective at doing it that they've noticed that different law enforcement agencies agencies are starting to mimic how their boats are set up to match adventures with purpose.

SPEAKER_08 14:37

Wow. That would be amazing. Yeah, we've been talking about adventures with purpose since the beginning of this case before we really had anybody else come on. Those were like the first, those were truly like some of the only YouTube videos besides news clips that were um available. And they're really, really incredible. Um, so yeah, that would be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Oh yeah. We'll make that connection.

SPEAKER_08 14:59

Yeah, let's go to the next question.

SPEAKER_06 15:01

Yeah, that actually leads in pretty nicely. Um for our next question, we were we were reflecting on some of the information that came in about um a private investigator that was hired and some, you know, potential image or like metal detector shape of a car on the golf course property. Uh our question is sort of do we know if that ever led anywhere? Do we know who hired him and sort of how that process went with GU?

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Yes, I can respond to that question. Um, you all know that Marie has been our best um point of contact as we are working through supporting Audrey's family. And Marie actually gave me Gus's name several weeks ago and um encouraged me to reach out. And as it turns out, he has had some sort of medical um issue and he's no longer able to participate. And so the last thing I had asked Marie is if we could potentially get any of the documentation that he was collecting um while he was doing his PI work. And I think we are still working on that, but I do not have um knowledge of who hired him originally. It he is someone that we were hoping to speak to, but the circumstances just won't allow for that. Not connecting. Yeah. And if we can get that documentation, then we can dig further into this image of the car and all those kinds of things that I know you guys um are asking about. We just don't have that information at this at this time.

SPEAKER_08 16:34

Cool. I think I'll go to my question. Um So my question is Um, I'd love to know your opinions on this Russian mob theory that's kind of been floating around um kind of in and out ever since we've been researching the case. It wasn't something that we had originally thought of, but we did bring in um a local um person in law enforcement who did not work on the case at the time, but did know of kind of like a similar or or looked at the patterns of the case. And it's interesting, they actually believed that it was a Russian mob attack. And um, it was something that we were surprised, being that like it's not really when you're here in this area, um, it's very calm and picturesque. And there's not, I guess you don't really see this mob activity. It doesn't feel like a place that that's where you would experience it, but apparently there is, especially in Green County, which is the county next to us where um Audrey went missing um in Catskill, there is um a presence of some Russian mom activity. So I'd just love to know what you guys think about that theory.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

That's it's a good question. So one of the things we try to be careful of is not to disparage anyone's theories, because at the end of the day, if we knew where she was, it wouldn't be a theory. We would we would just know. And so therefore, it's hard to rule a lot of things out. So one of the things that I do though is I'm very much I'm very evidence-driven. And so I mean it comes from my data background. So therefore, with me, if there's no data to support it, I can't spend too much time on it. Um, the Russian mob theory, um, at this point, from what we've seen, all the documents we've had, even the conversation we've had, there's zero evidence that points in that direction. And so again, I'm not saying that's not possible. I understand the area. I've even done some research on you know the Russian mob presence in that area, so I do understand it, but there's no key evidence, there's no speculation, there's no anything that connects to that story at all. And one of the things that tends to happen is as stories get older and older and things get unsolved, you a story itself can become quite a bit quite creative. And I and I get why. It's because people want to know, they're trying to figure it out. I'm like, okay, well, everything we do know is not possible. Let's start talking about these things are a bit wilder. And so it's not something we can completely discredit, but it's also one of those things that so far we've been presented zero evidence to even connect to it.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

I would love for you to share more if you can about what led your guest in that direction.

SPEAKER_08 19:07

Totally. And I'll share and please, any collective members, please jump in, those who were there that day. So we had a local law enforcement official come in, someone who's been working in the area for, I mean, years, um, well respecting the community. Um, something that she, the reason she had mentioned that she believed that it was um a Russian mob theory, in part was the fact that her car has never been found. Apparently, that from what she had explained, that that's something that is correlated with like some kind of mob activity. And, you know, I know very little about what the mob does. Um, I but before then I had no idea that there really even was mob activity in this area that was even trackable. Um, so she kind of led us to think that. Um, and so for a while, actually, we didn't, we kind of stopped investigating the case. I think we felt like we had kind of hit a wall and that like that was it. And we ended up coming back to it when we met with some other experts who did not believe it at all. And so I think also, too, there was this element of fear of like, we're just a group of local investigators and we're community members, and are we jumping into something that we is a little too close to home and like could be feel dangerous to us. Um, but I think we're at a place now where, you know, talking more about it, I I myself am more in the lane that it that it isn't. Um, but nonetheless, it's been kind of eye-opening to learn more about this area and that there is this activity that, you know, I myself had no idea about.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yeah, it's that's been the one thing that's been told to us a few times, and that was kind of the justification of oh, you know, the mob will typically disappear you in your car until that proves it's a mob hit or mob involved. And, you know, I can tell you just from doing this podcast that that is false. We have so many cases in which um a person has disappeared with their car, Michael John Olson disappeared with his car, you know, Ian Rogers disappeared. We now the truck's been found, but he disappeared. Um Cody originally disappeared with his vehicle, they found the vehicle later. And so, and even in the state of Florida, it's very common for cars to be dumped into sinkholes here. That's a very common thing here, dump into deep lakes. And this it has nothing to do with mob. And so having people disappear all the time with their vehicle is I don't I don't necessarily relate that to oh, that's proof of my mob activity. I would actually say quite the opposite.

SPEAKER_08 21:45

Yeah, I also find, too, that you know, Audrey herself, and the more we learn about her, just how like in a much of an amazing person she was, and like how like her family still speaks about her and It all of that, it nothing really, for me at least, leads me down that path of like it doesn't really make sense as to why it would be her, um, of of all things. Um, but you hear mob and you freak out because that's scary.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah, that's and you know, one you know, one theory that I thought about is the mob story may be built to get people not asked questions.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's good. It's good at it. And that happens here when we're speaking about Michael's uncle, who you talked about at the very beginning, who was murdered um coming up on 12 years ago. And a lot of the times it's not mob related, but there seems to be this underlying threat of drugs. And very often people will say, I don't want to come public because I'm afraid what happened to Jody might happen to me. So it's this narrative that comes up, and you know, there really isn't any definite proof that there was any drugs involved in his murder at this point, but that's what people believe. You take 10 people and nine of them won't speak because they're afraid of something.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, we have far more off-the-record conversations on that case than we do on the record. In fact, if you go back and listen to that series, we only interview really two people.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

And we talk to 12.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

Yeah, at least. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 23:18

Yeah. And fear can make you do, yeah, it can keep you very silent. And it's really good at that. Um to and to think too that like, yeah, we had put this down for a couple of months um and are now back at it is a I I'm happy that we're we're back investigating it.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

I do have a follow-up question. Is there someone in the group here today that lean that leans more towards the mob being involved? And if the if someone is in this group, I'd love to hear their thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I don't know. My opinion may just squat that topic.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Are we anti-mob now?

SPEAKER_08 23:53

I guess so. All right. Um cool.

SPEAKER_09 23:56

All right.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

I have converted another. And to be fair, I don't know if I'm right.

SPEAKER_09 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

You know, again, what just like I started the conversation, I I go where the evidence leads me, and I don't have any evidence that leads me that way.

SPEAKER_09 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 24:07

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's so, you know, I wonder too if we can have our that law enforcement officer back and kind of talk to her more about the things that we've learned and maybe why that isn't the case and why that could be something that maybe she could take a closer look into. Um, but yeah, it's definitely a theory that makes you want to close the laptop and not think about it. Um but yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

Um, so when Audrey left work, she would have driven right past my house. So I know this area really well. And I was wondering, do you know if the police have searched any of the local abandoned car yards? Um, because there is a massive junkyard, uh, Post Brothers auto parts right over by the bridge, very close to where she went missing. And there's thousands of cars there. Um, and they've been operating since the 70s. So they were definitely there when she went missing.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Someone's watched Making a Murderer, and I agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Yes, Making a Murderer. It's very interesting that you bring this up because this is something that neither one of us had heard anything about until we went on a podcast called Missing Persons. And this is it's actually um just posted this weekend. If you just search for Missing Persons, Mike Morford or Abject Entertainment. He asked us about the junkyard when we went on his show, and neither one of us had heard about that. And so again, I'm going to reflect back to what Michael just said about really leaning on evidence. We are waiting to get any information about the um in New York, it's called a FOIL instead of a FOIA, uh, which I did request we're pushing like five or six weeks now from the New York State Troopers. And hopefully, if they do respond to us, we'll get some pieces that indicate the places that they did search and then we will have some proof. So I personally had not heard anything. I think maybe Mike found it on Reddit. He did a lot of digging on Reddit. I don't really ever look at Reddit. So, you know, obviously you guys have heard about it too. So it's a theory that's been going around. And if I do get some FOIA, I'm gonna do, you know, control F and see if Junk Guard um pops up in there.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

We've got a funny enough, we've got a decent track record of getting those FOIA requests in. You know, we've talked to other podcasters and it's amazing. They we tell them that we've had at least four of them responded to now and provided information. They're like, You had four. We've been trying to do that for 10 years and gotten two in 10 years. So evidently, whatever Lisa is doing, it's working.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

And I I can ask Marie too. Marie is um in very close contact with Trooper Gabriel, who's a lead detective, and I can just ask her if that is a question that he can that he can respond to. Or Sancia or as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

So, based on everything that you have learned so far and all of the people that you have talked to, do you feel as though Audrey might actually be found?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

It's a good question. There's gonna be there's gonna need to be something break loose. Um, I think we at least from what I can tell, we've gone through all the evidence that's available to us that you know that we can get our hands on short of whatever law enforcement happens. We've interviewed a lot of people. I think I think it's possible to find anyone. And um you've had to you have to just really understand, you know, you have to be able to challenge your thought process on what you believe happened versus what could have happened. And so I think the more we do that, the more we kind of color outside the lines, the more likely we're gonna find her. Because at this point, we've looked everywhere that we know she's not there. And so now the question becomes where else do you look and what evidence leads you to those locations? And so the evidence starts getting thinner and thinner and thinner as far as where we can go. But um the challenge too is you know, since I'm familiar with the Catskills area, there's a lot of remote stuff there. You know, it's to me, it kind of reminds me of the um the New York version of disappearing in the Everglades down here in Florida. People disappear in the Everglades all the time. Um, and you have the same issue in the desert in Las Vegas. People disappear in the desert all the time. And so do I think it's possible? Yes, but obviously the colder this case case gets, the more difficult that becomes.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

I think from my perspective, it depends on which which what actually happened to her. So if I go down the path of she had an accident and went off the road and the car was submerged or it's in a ravine or something, then yes, I think her car and Audrey will be found be found if that's what happened to her. I mean, we do know this whole thing about cars and water was not even something that I was aware of. And now that I am more aware of this, sometimes cars and the people who are in those vehicles when they are submerged are found 50 plus years later. But if we walk down the path of um foul play, which seems to be something that came up like right away, suspicious death or suspicious disappearance, I should say. I think that's what Michael's talking about with something has to break loose. You know, someone knows if that's what happened, if foul play was involved. Somebody knows. And it was, it's just going to take that person deciding to tell what happened, or that person or people saying something to someone that, you know, again breaks loose something and leads the investigators in the direction to find her. But for me, it depends what actually happened to her as far as the viability of finding her and her vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yeah. And the big thing that, you know, we talk about this on podcasts quite a bit, and that is people will say, well, you know, law enforcement probably already knows this, or this isn't important. And what we like to remind people of when it comes to breaking items loose like that is that is not our job. Our job is to find these things and deliver them to law enforcement and then let law enforcement decide whether it's important or not. And so therefore, I'm just gonna encourage anyone who's listening. If you think you saw something, if something just seemed suspicious, if some say something.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

And I would love to I would love to ask you guys the same question. What are your thoughts on what this case may come to as a resolution?

SPEAKER_02 30:20

I want to speak to the point that you made about um the longer the case is cold, the harder it is to solve. And thinking about the fact that it I wonder if it works the opposite, if it is one of those trajectories where it was foul play, where someone does know something, if the case becomes easier to solve the more time goes on, because there's more likely going to be people who no longer need to hold it in. And for me, I think that's where we're headed.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

And you could be right. I mean, one of the things this again go back, we talked about Bill earlier, but this is something that I learned during that podcast is he said when people go missing, they tend to go missing in their circle of understanding or their circle and influence. And when foul plays introduce, you're they are no longer in their circle. They are in that other person's circle. And so it has to be what they're familiar with, what's you you know, what's familiar to them. And so in this situation, since we the to me, one of the biggest compelling things about the case was that night when she supposedly drove home, that there was no damaged guardrails, there was no damaged foliage trees, there was no skid marks on the road. Um, for all intents and purposes, there was nothing that went off the road, that nothing that anyone could find. And so to me, that's really compelling, which is, you know, either she didn't go that way, um, or something else happened. And so that's one of the reasons they've looked at so many different possible directions she could have gone and tried to investigate those. But even Bill says there's tons of water that's still completely unsearched and stuff on private property, things like that. He hasn't given up on she's in the water yet, and he still has plenty to look at from that perspective. Regarding foul play, it's hard to say. I mean, I don't know. I mean, if if it's foul play, you know, and say you buy the Russian mob theory, um, yeah, I don't think we'll ever find her.

SPEAKER_08 32:08

You guys touched on a really good point, too, about the importance of things and information that to us or s us meeting, you know, just an average person who may have known her. Um we I feel like wait, you're exactly right in the sense of when you we have we hold so much information that we think might is just insignificant or that won't doesn't matter. Um, it could be, you know, anything from what she had for breakfast this morning or, you know, the c like it all can can in in some way be important. And I think, you know, in cases that other cases that um I've looked at and the collective has looked at, sometimes it's just been the most minor, minute just memory or thing that breaks it loose. I remember I was listening to the um, I watched the podcast of the um or listened to the didn't watch the podcast. I watched the Netflix um series of Elizabeth Smart that just came out. And it was her sister who just saw was flipping through the Guinness Book of World Records and just remembered something and was like, you know what? I know exactly who took my sister. And that was just what triggered it. I don't know if we'll ever find her, and I want to so desperately, especially for her family. Um, and and just to know because it leaves people with such an unresolved openness of this case. But I hope that there is something, whether it's from listening to this or something that comes up where someone has a piece that they didn't think was significant, but maybe it is, um, and can be that piece that gets things going again. Cause you're right. We've I feel like so many avenues with this have been explored, and it's gonna need to be something that's new that we don't know about.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Agreed. Um, I think I think it has potential to be solved. I mean, there's there's been a lot of interest in the case still. Um, but I'm also of of the mindset of like you need to follow the evidence, and the evidence is going in so many different directions, and it's like little pieces that I think that there has to be like that shining moment where one of these things comes through. And I I really hope so. Like for her own family's sake, like losing someone and not knowing what happened to them or or where they are or if they're alive. Um, I imagine that would be really awful. So I just I hope that something comes through, but I yeah, I don't know. I uh it's been such a long time too.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

It's it's kind of interesting. So even even the evidence that we do know, it can be told in different stories. And then one of them sounds nefarious, and the other one sounds totally normal. Like let's talk about the tire, for example. You know, we all know that the tire was found outside of the Jeep, so she didn't have a spare tire. And so you instantly go as, well, what if somebody killed her, loaded her body in the back of the Jeep, they had to take the tire out because that particular model kept the tire inside the cab. And you know, that's why the tire wasn't there, and that's a screw up on whoever's part. But the same story is told of she was hauling off a bunch of baby clothes, um, and that she had filled up all this, all the back of her Jeep with these clothes. Who's to say that she didn't take the tire out herself or have Jeff take it out and to load up to load these? I mean, that's a question we have for Jeff, but you know, Jeff is not communicating with anybody, not just us, it's anybody in the case. Um, and that can be looked at two different ways. It can be looked at, okay, what is he hiding, but the other side of it is he has children to protect, and he's trying to keep them out of the limelight. So again, I can argue his reaction both ways. What does it mean?

SPEAKER_04 35:53

Well, and I'd like to bring another theory um to the group that we haven't discussed yet, which is about this particular individual who is the son of someone who worked with Audrey. And I know that you all know what I'm talking about, and this person is uh makes some really awful life choices, particularly towards women. And so this is a name that's come up very frequently as potentially being involved in her disappearance as well. And I would just love to hear your the collective's thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_07 36:23

Well, I know that I think what it w when the law enforcement woman came to our to our group, I think that she mentioned we had asked about that, and I think in she she made a note of saying that they had really looked into that person and had gone to their house and had searched sort of the property, and I think there even was a body of water that they searched for the car, and they could not find anything. So I think that they ruled it out pretty quickly, but they looked into it pretty extensively, from what I understand.

SPEAKER_05 37:01

Um, I do think that someone of that caliber I don't know if they're smart enough to have pulled this whole thing off because people tend to forget that the reason that a lot of criminals get caught is because they're not very smart. They're not very thorough, they're not very intelligent. And I think that you know, when you're looking at someone who makes poor life choices or has issues with drug addiction or that kind of thing, for someone like that to be able to pull off something like this and have her not be found and have her car disappear, I think that you know, that's kind of overshooting that person's abilities a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

That's a good point. Especially the car.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah, the car becomes a problem.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

You know, so that's uh that's that's it's one thing to get rid of a body, that's another thing to get rid of a whole whole car. Um, but you know, it's not like this is our only case where that's true. True. Someone's figured it out, just not me.

SPEAKER_07 37:58

I also feel like maybe somebody in that person's orbit would have said something by now. Somebody who know who if if anyone was aware, if something had happened between the coworker's son and Audrey, I feel like somebody would have said something at this point.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

No, I agree with that. That's that's kind of how sounding very familiar, isn't it? Yeah, that's that's been one of my theories on whenever you have someone that's painfully obvious that they could have done it. The first question I ask is, okay, cool, what piece of evidence is preventing it from their arrest? And so what I typically find when we dig into those types of things is we find there's just one piece of evidence that completely exonerates them, gives them an alibi, whatever. So even though you don't like that person, the person's a douchebag or whatever the problem is, um, just that being um being abusive to women doesn't make you a murderer, it just makes you an asshole. And so with that, you you you make a good point. So if they've looked in this person, we haven't spent a lot of time on this one. It's it's on the it's on our radar for sure. Um, but I also was looking for yet another piece of evidence that leads me that direction. And while I do know that story, I don't have anything super solid that puts me there. And I agree with you that they get caught because they're not smart. In fact, one of my favorite um TV shows, it's Mindhunter, and they talk to the guy that's played Ed Kemper. You know, he's talking about these profiles that they're building for the FBI, and he said basically says that your profile's flawed because the profile is based on the people you've caught, not the people you haven't caught. To me, that actually scared me when I was watching the show.

SPEAKER_05 39:29

I was like, It's interesting. Yeah, I saw I used to work with law enforcement, and you know, this is more modern, but a lot of criminals they get caught because they go live on Facebook or they brag about it in their Instagram story, and they get caught by literally just people like me who are working with the attorneys who just happen to pull up this person's Instagram and they decided to make a comment, or they decided to send the message on Facebook and accidentally posted it publicly. And so in a lot of modern cases, that's how they get solved. It's not necessarily really deep police work.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Agreed. I mean, I I think about how you know you gotta wonder how much BTK was kicking his own ass over sending a floppy disk to the Kansas law enforcement for them just to sit there and see look at the serialized information and track it down to the exact computer of where it was located, including IP. If he had said nothing, we would not know who BTK is today. He had gotten away with it and there was not they had they had nothing.

SPEAKER_04 40:33

But he couldn't help himself.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Couldn't help himself. Yeah. Stupid.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

But you never know. Maybe they're listening, and if we call them stupid enough, they'll get upset and mess something up.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

That's a good point. Who would you like to call stupid today? Is that where we're headed?

SPEAKER_04 40:48

I don't know. We should do that. I I mean it this conversation is kind of making me think about a particular story that we covered where, you know, we we talk a lot about these cases. And we will sometimes, just like you all, we speak for hours. And I just kind of keep coming back to, you know, if drugs are involved in this person's death, somebody knows and they're gonna cut a deal. You know, they're gonna say, I know something about this, so that you can reduce my sentence. Um, so I I kind of think in the same way that you do, and I sort of like what someone said earlier about, you know, maybe there is this reverse kind of correlation that the longer it goes, the harder it is for someone to not say something and and they do kind of mess up and say something. True.

SPEAKER_07 41:38

But in that case, isn't it odd? I mean, it strikes me as being very odd that her husband has will not speak to anybody. It's already it's been a such a long time, it's been over 20 years. So I un obviously understand wanting to protect children and and protect the family, but after a certain point, like where is the line where it becomes now about really wanting to to find out what's happened? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

It's a really good question, and so it's one that we struggle with. And funny enough, in two hours, we have another interview, and it's with someone specifically to talk about grief responses. And so, because it's been a question that's come up, even in in my case, the Jody Kilgore case, my aunt um has refused talking to um law enforcement, and then as soon as we started publishing the cases, she won't talk to me. And so it's I I lost a family member through this process. So I got to lose two. I got to lose Jody and I got to lose Susan, my aunt.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

Yeah, we're really seeking someone um like a psychologist or a psychiatrist or something who can speak with us about this phenomenon that we are coming across where every single story that we have told, every single victim story that we have told, there's someone very integral to putting the pieces of the puzzle in place who will not speak with us. In his uncle's case, it's his uncle's wife. And, you know, you all know in this case it's going to be Audrey's husband. And in another case, it's the last verifiable person to see Michael John Olson alive. And in another case, it's these two gentlemen who supposedly spent the weekend with Cody Haney before he went missing. Like every single time we can tell you someone we think would really want to come forward and can move this case does not speak to us. And it's a a wild phenomenon. We don't understand it, and we would like to have some expert kind of help us talk through that.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Well, keep in mind, too, it's not, I want to make sure we're clear on this. It's not us. They're not speaking to anyone.

SPEAKER_08 43:45

Anyone, yeah. I think it's great that you're bringing on a psychologist to talk about this. You know, you see it in a lot of um cases too. Everybody is so, so different in How they respond to a trauma or, you know, and it it's hard, but it's also hard as a person to not make judgment. I think it's like an inherent thing that we go, oh, we would never do that, or we would never act this way. And the truth is we don't know what we would do when faced to this kind of situation. Um, so there have been times where yeah, I've been like, oh my gosh, Jeff, just, you know, speak. But then I also think there's another part of me that wonders like if he wasn't a part of her disappearance, what he, you know, must be caring and going through and why that's made him so shut off to the world, um, and people wanting to know. Um, and I'm really curious to see what the psychologist says about it. We're working on finding someone.

SPEAKER_06 44:51

Yeah, actually that um reminds me of you know, you were talking about the like the last people who saw uh someone else before they went missing. The last people that Audrey saw before she went missing were her coworkers. And there was at least one coworker who made a statement and then retracted it. And that's sort of a weird psychological thing as well. Do we have any I don't know if we have any more verified information from the coworkers that she spoke to last. Um, but I'd also just be really curious about the like psychological process of that person being like, oh yes, I was following her until this road. No, actually I wasn't. I just wanted to be a part of things.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

Yes, I have a couple of things I can say about that. I did speak over the phone very briefly with someone who did work with Audrey that night, um, just to get more of a state of mind and had worked with Audrey, I think, for about a year. Yes, right. And she indicated that things seemed normal that night. She is not um the person who walked out with Audrey, but she said she didn't see anything unusual going on with Audrey that night or even leading up to that. Um, so I did have a brief conversation with her just so that we could get um someone on the record who was there that night that Audrey um went missing. And then, I mean, as far as your other question, uh, we were talking earlier about tips, right? And we want people to say things um, even we don't know what it is, but please share what you know. Um, I cannot tell you how blown up my Facebook Messenger is since we've started this process. Uh people message me all the time. Um, little things that they heard in a ride share or something they heard at the bar. And of course, I always encourage them to go directly to um whoever is the law enforcement agency who's leading that case. And, you know, the unfortunate reality is as much as we keep saying we do want these tips to go, sometimes law enforcement actually doesn't want those tips. And I'm not saying that in in Audrey's case, but in one of our um stories that we have covered, we we know actively that one of the law enforcement people said, Well, I wish the podcasters would stop doing what they're doing because we're just getting all these tips and they're all useless. Of course, we said, Hey, everybody, keep sending in your tips. Um, you know, it's just like so super frustrating. But there is this thing about people who just want to be a part of something that I think is bigger than them. And that's really, again, up to law enforcement to decide, is this credible or is this, you know, are we gonna take this all the way to the end and here's what we found.

SPEAKER_08 47:36

Do we want to do our final question?

SPEAKER_06 47:39

I guess that kind of does answer the final question. If you've only spoken to that one coworker, we were really curious about sort of those last moments in the parking lot and where she parked and how well lit it was, and um, the coworker that she supposedly spoke to just before she got in her car and what they saw and what they spoke about. Um, you don't have any more information on that.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

I do remember Mike speaking about how he had seen some things on Reddit about some very grainy footage that was taken from a camera in the parking lot, but the the footage was not didn't have enough resolution to be able to determine if that was actually Audrey. Now again, this is something that I can look for in whatever records um that we do get from the New York State Troopers. It is really amazing the things that can be taken out of that. We did get one request from FOIA. Again, we're gonna go back to Michael's uncle's um murder. And we finally got something after several, several, several months, but what, 90% of it was redacted?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah, it looked like black construction paper.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

But there were things there that even though all that was redacted, we were able to determine that there was an eyewitness to a potential argument that happened in the moments before his uncle was killed. We did have um a statement that came from the first responding officer that we gave to our statement analyst, and he looked at it. So, like it even if a lot of it is redacted, there are still things that we can go in and look for and and pull out. So I'm really hopeful that we're able to get that response from them relatively soon.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah, speaking of that case, one thing that's really there's a piece of evidence there that they we think they messed up and they didn't redact properly, we found something that we figured out it was an address. Then we figured out that they did remove evidence or log evidence from that address. And so we track down the address, I'm not gonna say it here, um, but and we kind of understand who that address is connected to. And it's a pretty well-known family in this area. So you start having the conversation of would law enforcement um cover that up? Um I wouldn't think so, but it's a theory.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

I'm wondering if there are other questions that have popped up that you guys hadn't thought of uh prior.

SPEAKER_07 49:56

I mean, I just really want to know what you guys think. Like, what is your leading theory? What evidence do you think pulls just like pulls you into a certain direction the most?

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Um it's a good question. I've struggled with this one. Do I believe that Audrey wandered off? The answer is no. I don't think there's any evidence that gets me to believe that, especially considering Sancia was coming back into town. She hadn't seen her daughter in a while. She's not, she's not, if she's gonna take off, it's not today. So regarding the Russian mob theory, I've already said that I don't really believe that one because there's just not any evidence for it. I still think it's possible that she's in a ravine or in a lake somewhere. There's enough evidence to show that that's that possibility is there. And because, you know, you thought think about the night, you think it's 11 o'clock, she's worked a full shift. Um, while that area is familiar, it was dark and it was um rainy or misty that night, and the road conditions, you know, weren't awful, but they were marginal. And so therefore, if you take that into account and she wasn't paying attention, or maybe something ran out in the road, it could very well end her in a in a lake that no one's checked yet. That's why Bill has all these private property locations that he really wants to check out. Now, regarding foul play, yeah, I mean, you know, bottom line, you've got a a really pretty blonde woman who's disappeared. You know, she's she's quite small, so she wouldn't be difficult to overtake. And as a result of that, you know, poof, gone. That's the challenge with these missing person cases. And it also, I believe that's a possibility because again, you go back to we've already looked in her circle, we're not finding her. So whose circle is she in? Now there's still information, some I can talk about and some I can't, um, regarding some of the crazier things like the purse that was supposedly seen that had her information, her cigarettes, her stuff in the purse that was seen when they were looking for her. So how does she get separated from her purse? And so there's theories that she made it all the way home and that, you know, something happened once she got home. You know, and so that doesn't put Jeff in a great light, but it also doesn't prove anything. You know, she may have left her purse at home. I mean, and I'm I've left my I've left my wallet at home before. That's happened. And that was someone saying, I think I saw the purse. I think I saw they didn't they did they can't confirm it. That's one of the questions we have for law enforcement is was that piece of evidence considered? And we're hoping to find that in the FOIA. So yeah, I'm I'm stuck between off the road in a lake and foul play. We've even looked at the concepts of what serial killer activity was happening in the area at the time. Could it be related to that? There's no information directly leading it, but that's kind of the nature of a serial killer, now isn't it? And so it's it's definitely possible. There's no evidence that points me that direction. So it's just a theory.

SPEAKER_08 52:44

Something I guess this is more of um a comment than anything. But when we were talking about, you know, AI and for, you know, technology, it reminded me that there's really we don't have a per there's no scene. So we don't have there's DNA right now is not applicable in this. It had like I was thinking about other ways in which um, you know, people have been caught. And I guess that's just the true difficulty of a missing person's case is it's like you're kind of working off of everything and nothing at the same time. And that was just something I thought I'd never really, you know, considered that with a missing person's case, there's no, there's no scene of the crime. It doesn't that that you know of, it doesn't yet exist. Um, and so yeah, you're really just in the ether here of figuring out what sticks and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Oh yeah. And so one of the things that we've learned through this process ourselves is we didn't start this out as investigators. We've gotten much, much better at it over time. And um, one of the things that we've learned is the whole concept of when where where and when should you start looking? And so when you think about what happened to Audrey that she went missing, well, that's the finality. And so what you actually have to do is start looking at things that happened days, weeks, months before that event and look for some kind of relationship. And that's kind of what we're doing now. That's one reason we ask, you know, questions like, you know, anything strange leading up to X. You know, we've got information to where she was being very rebellious. We talk about this in the episode, and she was smoking cigarettes and you know, being sassy with Jeff, and that, you know, they have a theory that that maybe that made him mad, but you know, again, mad enough to kill her? I don't know. You know, I've gotten mad with my wife before. She gets mad with me. We haven't taken each other out. With that being said, you know, it's one of those things that, yeah, I think a deeper dive in those types of things, because you're right, you're dealing with no crime scene. It's well, it's I'll say it this way. There's there's a reason a lot of um attorneys don't like to take a court case in without a body. And it's because it's so difficult to prove anything because everything becomes circumstantial. Versus if you have, you know, the evidence, well, now it's a different conversation. You know, you have DNA evidence, you have fiber evidence, you have lots of different things that you can start applying. And so you take opinion out of the situation and you start getting more into science and fact. And so I think that's what really hurts us in missing person cases and why when we started looking at missing person cases with this podcast, that our phones exploded. Because there's lots of people out there that are looking for help. And they're not getting it to the satisfaction that they that they want. But I also want to be fair. I come from a law enforcement background, I've never been law enforcer myself, but my grandfather's law enforcement, my mother was law enforcement, um, an uncle that was law enforcement. And so, with all that being said, um, I understand the workload that they're under and the stress that they're under, and I know that as soon as they solve this case, if they solve it at all, there's 15 more right behind it. You know, and so it's extremely difficult. It's a it's it's an extremely difficult line of work. And I can imagine it's probably very um, I'm sure there's times where it's, you know, people are thankful um when they actually are able to solve a problem, but for the most part, I think that, you know, a lot of it is wrapped in mystery and broken families and that you know, they feel that law enforcement isn't doing it doing enough because they're not finding that person. And so I I I have sympathy on both sides of this. Um, and it's hard to it's hard to separate that sometimes because even when we reach out to law enforcement, we've got this new piece of information and they won't return our call. It pisses us off. Where's like, dude, we fed it the crap out of this. We know it's real. And it's not in any record that we can find. So it we won't talk about stuff on air until we caught the law enforcement and give them the opportunity to tell us whether or not it's legitimate or not. Um, you know, so there's several things in a couple of cases that we found out that we have never said online.

SPEAKER_04 56:45

Oh, well, and I want to talk about theories a little bit in relation to um one of the other stories that we were covering. And this is our missing person, Ian Rogers, here out of um North Florida. And I had a a theory based on what like I felt and the information that we had. Ian this is a person who also went missing with his vehicle and he had some significant issues with substance abuse. And I I felt very strongly that he had gone off into the woods, parked the truck, and had an accidental overdose based on a lot of the information that we were able to gather. And then his truck was found, and he's not in it. And so my theory is is wrong. He did not have an accidental overdose in his vehicle. They searched for a couple of days um and brought in some pretty signific, you know, like expertise search um consulting teams, nothing, no phone, no wallet, no Ian. So that my theory right there, it was wrong. I thought for sure, because as soon as I heard that his truck was found, I reached out to his mom and I said, How are you? Are you doing okay? And then that that theory wasn't exactly what happened, and we still don't know where Ian is.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Yeah, I bought into that one too. We were so we were sitting there going, he OD'd in that truck.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

And he's gonna be found in the truck, wherever that truck happens to be. And that's just not what happened.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

Yeah, and there's no DNA or like uh as to Jess's point, once you have something, because they had nothing until they found his truck, and but there's at least as far as they're telling us, nothing in the truck that's leading to any significant foul play, no blood, no nothing. So yes, we found the truck, and we're still sitting in the same place that we were before without the truck.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

And that's one of the reasons you go back to the Audrey case is you know, finding the vehicle becomes paramount. And the reason is because, you know, her body at this point would be unrecognizable if she in fact is is dead, which I think everyone believes that that's probably true. And with that being said, so it leaves the vehicle to track down. And it's it's hard to dispose of a car um in any kind of permanence because everything's serialized, you know, and we've everything's on Carfax at this point. And so you've got, you know, so many different ways to find that car, which is one of the reasons I believe it's underwater. Because I feel like, you know, every time we've had a vehicle in the woods, it's been found. Our water cars have not been found.

SPEAKER_08 59:09

Yeah, that's true. Good point. I had think I have a one question for you guys. Um, do you have any advice for us as a group as we go forward in our investigation? Um, any like words of wisdom um for us?

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Um, yeah, I mean, I can start. Um the biggest thing is to stay open-minded. Um, whenever you first start to hear people's stories, um, what you have to understand is you're dealing with the emotional aspect of what happened. Now, that doesn't make it less real for that person. So it's real. So you have to be very sensitive of how you approach it, but some of it's wild. And you but you have to get through that and you have to acknowledge, you know, how they got there and that they're just looking for answers. And so providing a lot of empathy to these conversations is really, really important. The other thing is don't don't don't buy into wild theories. One of the best things that I think we do is people bring us wild theories all the time. The very first thing I ask is, what's the evidence that gets you there? And it usually turns into, I feel. Okay, well, that doesn't matter. Um, it doesn't matter how you feel. I mean, any any attorney will tell you it's not even it doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what I can prove. And so, what can you prove? And then usually go, well, I just think this is the thing. Great. I think lots of things. That doesn't make them real. And so that being said, is just making sure that you stay very empathetic, but also very factual in what you approach. There's liability in what we do. So like if I I go through every episode, I actually hear every episode at least four or five times because I do all the editing. And so, with that being said, I listen for not only the edits, but I'm also looking for any potential for libel. And so you want to think about that. You just there there are podcasters that will get out there and just start making wild accusations. What they don't realize is they could be sued to oblivion for doing that. And so therefore, it's just, you know, staying rooted in fact, being empathetic, um, and understanding that that you have to kind of filter through emotions to get down to what most likely happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:14

And I would say leverage your strengths. I'm sure all of you sitting, you know, who are on this collective have strengths in certain areas. Maybe you have someone who's really starting to dabble in AI. So let's have that person start really playing around with AI and see what you can find there. Maybe you have someone who loves making spreadsheets. It's not me. It's probably Michael. Maybe someone is a they love it. So have that person be working on the spreadsheet when you're documenting. Maybe you have someone who really is good with understanding maps. Then that person, and you know, you leverage the strengths that you all have. Maybe someone's really good building relationships. So that's the person who's going out and trying to connect with people. Michael wants to say something.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

I have to interrupt for a second. You are dangerously describing my escape room strategy.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:03

It is the escape room strategy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Escape room strategy. Um, we're big escape room people, and so um we do one for my birthday every year. And I always assign people jobs and to figure out what they're good at, and that's how you get out. And so I was like, this sounds awfully familiar.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:15

That's right. I'm the note taker. Then let's just tell everybody, Michael, what's your job always?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

I'm the project manager.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:20

He's the leader. And you know what? Most of the time we get out.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

We get out.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:25

Right. So I mean, both of us are coming that from a leadership perspective, just in our professional um lives. Leverage your strengths if you're not already. Find out what people are really strong at and use their strengths to move your work forward. Awesome. Thank you so much. Any last thoughts, things that have come up?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

I have a thought.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:44

Michael has a thought.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

I want to hear your crazy theory. Who has the craziest theory in the group?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:49

About Audrey?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:51

Something we haven't discussed?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Even if we have discussed it, I'd love to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:56

Does anyone have one?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

Just put him on the spot. He's gonna tell us we're crazy now.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:00

I feel like Sydney has a theory.

unknown 1:03:02

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

Sydney, let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

What's my theory? I don't remember my theory. Document. See, we you need a note taker.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

I am the note taker.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

Oh crap. That's not too promising now.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

I've got I've got a I made the whole I made a whole spreadsheet for us so that we can keep track of everything. I don't know. What's my what's my theory, Annabelle? I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:24

I just feel like you know so much about it and you're I don't know. What is your theory?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Let me ask you a different question then. Is there anything that you think we've got wrong? You guys have studied this case.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

I don't think so. I think that hearing from Maria and Marie, if I have their names right, was probably the most enlightening part of all of this because I think that at least for me, I went into it not sure how I felt. And their interviews definitely steered me toward a very particular line of thinking that I'm still not sure is correct. I I don't remember who said it earlier, but it seems like the evidence points in so many different directions. There there's no direction in which there isn't evidence.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

Um, which is a a theory, but I just it has to be foul play in my mind. I just like I I don't see another option with like no no sign of a car wreck or anything. Like it could be underwater. Um, but I don't know. It just it really feels like something very nefarious happened here.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

Yeah, and that's that's a theory we can't eliminate. So it's one of those things that I actually have the ret car slash foul play kind of rank the same, just because I I'm not able to find that piece of evidence that steers one way or the other. That's where I struggle.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

And I think for those of us living in the area, just knowing how rural it is, it is so remote, depending on where you are. But it it can be really, really dark at night and very, very lonely. And I yeah, I am I'm I'm with Jamie. I feel like in my gut something went wrong. Um, especially considering her youth, her beauty, her size. It it all to me it points to that. But again, we're in a super rural area, anything could have happened.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:21

And I think to that point too, maybe I find myself like not being as I found myself leaning, like almost pigeonholing myself in certain lines of thinking. Um because I am so familiar with this area. And to think to think about these things happening in your backyard is like horrifying. Oh, yeah, and places like where Audrey went missing, like I used to have an Amazon locker there, like and I used to go there and you learn that you know what your daily trip was to go to your Amazon locker was that. person's last day that we know of. And yeah, I mean, I think to Sydney's point, it is so there are parts of this area that are so rural and so open that it's almost over. I like I can't almost imagine um how Adventures with Purpose feels because they're, you know, even with all the technology, there is so much area to cover. But I also I do maybe I tend to be more of an optimist in the way I think. But I really do feel like these things, anything can truly be solved with the right information at hand. And um, you know, we're seeing cases that have been solved um like the boy in the box that was solved and Jack the I mean cases that were over hundred like over a hundred years old.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:54

But I I do I do think that there will come a time where something will be dispelled. There will be some information that becomes uncovered. And I think like what we're doing, I don't think anything that you guys have said is necessarily wrong or that you're going in the wrong direction. I think you're very on it. And I think we just have to keep going that way with stuff. That's the only way that this stuff ever gets solved or that people learn about it. And another thing too is that there's a whole something that we haven't talked about in this area. There's a whole influx of new residents in this area. So a lot of people that live in the Catskill Hudson Valley region have moved up from New York City in the past six, seven years post-pandemic that may not know Audrey's story um that, you know, where people who have lived here for you know their whole lives will know it. So I think continuing especially with this with the population change, who knows? Maybe the more we keep talking, maybe something else will come. Maybe there's a benefit from newer people being up here with with fresh eyes taking a look at it.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:10

Well and this is why I join all the local Facebook pages when we um support a a new family I find out like where are the Facebook neighborhood Facebook pages and I I join all of them as we're leading up to it so that I can, you know, put our work and the things that we're doing into those groups so that the people who are new to their to the area have an idea of what has happened.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:33

I would say I think the thing I found most compelling that I learned from the podcast was when you were speaking with Adventures with purpose, him bringing up the fact that there's all these bodies of water on private property.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:44

And I know the area well because she would have left from right by my house and I used to take a similar route to my job. And so there's not a lot of like public bodies of water that she could have just crashed off of onto the road unless she was not on one of those roads going to exactly where her house was. And so I think I I think that really lends a lot of credence to the foul play theories because of the fact that like I think it makes the most sense that if her car is in the water it is on private property and it was probably put there not crashed there.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:23

Exactly you've been listening to Tragedy a true crime podcast our purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode resonated with you we encourage you to subscribe leave a review and share the podcast so these important stories continue to be heard. Together we can preserve their memories and ensure their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for cases we should cover or questions about what you heard you can connect with us through our Facebook group Tragedy a True Crime Podcast on X at Tragedy Podcast by email at Tragedy a True Crime Podcast at gmail dot com or by visiting our website www dotrucrime podcast dot com. Thank you for listening and we hope you'll join us next time