SPEAKER_01 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. In Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, we hold space for the people who are missing and for the ones who miss them. Audrey Heron was deeply loved. Today we're joined by Karina, a close friend who knew Audrey in life, not in loss. Through her memories, we remember Audrey as she was, and we honor the love that continues as her family waits for answers. In this episode, we continue the story of Audrey's disappearance by speaking with her good friend Karina. And welcome to the show, Karina.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yes, thank you for being here. We we really appreciate your contribution to trying to move Audrey's disappearance forward and seeing if we can put this puzzle together to complete the picture. Um, so before we speak a little bit about Audrey, tell our listeners about you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I'm a mother of three, uh, three grown girls. I have a grandson, 10 months old. And um, I just moved out of the area that we we all lived in within the last uh six, seven months.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Uh that's about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah. Okay. What do you want people to know about Audrey?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

She she was a great mother and a good wife and a and a great friend. She loved her kids with everything she had in her in her soul. They were her number one priority. You know, she she was always uh I I I just remember her being so spunky, and that's the only way I can um describe her. Spunky and, you know, she was a little girl, but um spunk to her and energy and you know, great energy. She was just she was an overall good person.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Tell us how you met and a little bit about your relationship.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Um, Audrey and I met in high school. We, you know, we hung out in school, we hung out after school, after uh we graduated. Um, we lost track for I don't know, maybe I moved to a different area maybe five years. We we lost contact. I don't really remember if we spoke occasionally, you know, but um she had moved to my mom's street in Koksaki, and my mom ran into her and told me. I was living in Cairo at the time, and I moved back to Koksaki with my oldest daughter Mariah, who was uh a year old, and we literally lived a couple minutes from well, I lived a couple minutes from her and my mom's street. So it must have been then that we I contacted her and we got a lot closer then. Sancia was three years old at that time. My daughter Mariah was a year old, and um we we did a lot of things together with the girls. Uh Disney on ice, we went to the circuses together. I spent a lot of time at her and Jeff's home on in Koksaki on Van Dyke Street. Uh yeah, so we just we got you know reacquainted from our high school years to our adult life.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Um, we're gonna ask you to kind to kind of think back to sort of the days, maybe weeks, and maybe even months before Audrey went missing. Did you notice anything unusual about her behavior or be the behavior of anybody around her that kind of stands out to you as you reflect back on that? No.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

No, not at all. I mean, I these are the things that I replay in my head.

unknown 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Not so much now, but then. Uh nope, her and Jeff moved into their new home. Um, they moved from Koksaki to Freeholds in their new home next to the golf course. And actually, I'm sorry, no, they moved from Koksaki to the golf course in another home that was already there, and then they were building. But a couple weeks, trying to think, no, I I don't know how many weeks. I or you know, it might have been a month leaving before the disappearance. She they were moving into the big house, and there was a dog house that she was given away. So my husband at the time, we came over with he came over with a truck. I think I had my vehicle, a separate vehicle. The only thing that was kind of strange was that Jeff came to the house. He must have been working on the on the golf course um the day that we came to pick up the dog house. And um it was almost like he was wondering who was there because there was he must have seen vehicles in the driveway, I'm assuming. But he didn't come upstairs. I think I remember him being down in the basement. And yeah, I don't know. There was it was a little strange. I don't know. I can't explain why it was strange. It was just a feeling I got. Um, but nothing, nothing, you know, cr crazy or anything. It was just I didn't know if he was being nosy, wondering who was there, or it was just an odd uh I guess the way he was acting. Like he didn't come upstairs. Um, I think I I remember him staying downstairs in the basement and calling up. The next thing you know, the last conversation that was the last time I saw her physically. We talked about all getting together and playing cards. I'm not a card player, but my ex-husband was. So, and I guess they were too. But that's uh the last conversation physically that I had with her.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

And what do you remember about when you discovered that she was missing? Talk us through that.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

So that day, it was a Friday, and I actually remember the night before when everything was happening, which we we hadn't known yet, but it was the 9-11 on I think Dateline or something like that. The night they had the 9-11 babies being born that year because it was a year later. And they were like, you know, some of them were a year old, some of them were were, you know, born. And uh I remember watching that on Dateline that night. And the next day, my youngest daughter was, I think, going into first grade. And we went, I took her and my two younger girls, who were babies at the time, to Albany to go clothes shopping for Mariah for school. And I had been gone all day. When I got home on my answering machine, on my digital answering machine was I don't remember if it was Jeff first or there were three messages on my phone. One from my friend, our friend Dawn, one from our friend Nelly, and one from Jeff. But I don't remember which one was first and if his was last or his was first, but they didn't say anything on the phone. The girl, uh Dawn said, you know, give me a call when you get home. Nellie said the same thing, so I knew something was going on, you know. And then Jeff's message, and I still to this day, because probably because I played it over and over and over, was um, hi Karina, it's Jeff Heron. We're having trouble locating Audrey. If you've heard from her, please call me. And so from there I called, I must have called Dawn because I wasn't as close with Nelly as I was Dawn. And Dawn and I and Audrey were really good friends in high school. The three of us did stuff together, you know. So Dawn Ballard is also was very close with Audrey. Yeah, so I must have gotten a hold of the one of the girls. I'm I'm assuming it was Dawn, and she must have told me what was going on. And my mom came over to watch my kids, and so I can go out with them. I I think we met, I think Dawn and Nelly met at my house, and I must have gone with them, and we all went on foot. Can't remember if Marie was there, if she met us. I'm thinking maybe she was at work. I think she was away at work when all this happened, but um, we all went on foot on the streets surrounding, you know, near, I think it was like Cannef Road or Plat can't remember the name of the roads, but near Audrey's home. And we actually went on foot just looking to see if there was any vehicles in the woods, if something went off the road, you know, if somebody went off the road. I can't remember if I if I went we might have gone to to Audrey's house after that. I I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Why pr why that particular area is a starting point? I mean, what compelled you to go to that spot?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

I think because that would have been the road, the the um side road that would have been off of Route 32, which so she would have had to take a main road through after she got out of Jefferson, which is outside of Catskill, um, it's not too far from the hospital where she was or the nursing home to get to Route 23. And 23 is a main, is a mean highway. And from 23, she would have taken a right onto Route 32, which is another, it's not a highway, but it's a a main road. And off of Route 32, she would have turned right. I believe it's Canf Road. And then she would have taken a left off another road. Those are back roads. So off of Route 32, CANF and the other road were back roads. So I'm thinking I don't know. I I'm I'm thinking maybe because they were back roads and we thought maybe nobody checked the I don't know. I don't I don't remember. The only thing I I I'm assuming is because they were back roads and she could have we were thinking she could have gone off the road because of course that's what we're thinking. That's our first thoughts. Like she had to have gotten off the road gone off the road. You know, at this point, we never in our wildest dreams would have thought that she was missing, she would have gone missing, and we wouldn't have f found her. You know, at that point. I I still can't believe we haven't found her, but but then, you know, at that point, I think we were thinking we were gonna find her.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

So it sounds like you're thinking maybe she's had a flat tire or run out of gas or something. She's just going to hold off the side of the road, maybe not necessarily.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

I no, I I think it was more like she went off the road. We thought she could have gone off the road. It was raining that night. I'm assuming foggy. And we're just looking for, you know, it's fresh. It's the day after. We're just thinking of tracks or something. You know, there it's a it's the country. It's it's back roads. There, there could have been like a little bit of uh in not in a cliff or anything, but like a little, you know, you go go off the road and go through the woods or you know what I mean? So yes. Hit a tree.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Was law enforcement involved at this point?

SPEAKER_02 12:44

I don't remember. I remember hearing that they were notified that morning by her stepmother, Jeannie, because she works for the state troopers. I I'm assuming, yes. I uh I don't remember now, but I'm assuming, you know, I don't I don't know when they started looking for her, though. I don't remember when they started looking.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, I was just trying to determine this. It sounds to me like if if this isn't the first search, it's it's certainly close to the first search.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, it sounds like you're describing more of like maybe a disturbance, maybe a tree that looks like, you know. I hear what you're saying now. Thank you very much. We weren't thinking of anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

She went off at this point, we're thinking she went off the road. You know, I mean, what w really, what else could have hap- you know what I mean? Like now it's 20 something years later, and you're like, still can't believe it's we can't find her. And you know, but when when it first happens, you're you're not thinking that she's she's gonna go missing. You know, you're thinking there has to be a logical explanation. And the only logical explanation was she went off the road.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, and this this this particular piece is really strange. It goes back to, you know, we've done a lot of reading so far, and it's a 12-mile stretch of road, and what law enforcement that we've been able to see so far indicated that they look for damaged guardrails, they look for trees that have been damaged, bushes, skid marks, anything. And that the the only thing that was notable in this 12 miles was the lack of any of that.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Wait, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

What do you mean lack of the lack of any of those characteristics? Yeah, that there weren't any of those things.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Oh, right, right, right, right, right. And I I mean, w we went, you know, you've got to think, so if she left work at 11 o'clock, this was less than 24 hours when we went out there, because I got home in the afternoon sometime. I want to say that if I remember correctly, and I still have the phone, actually, I don't know that it works, but I I want to say that when everybody called me, it was early afternoon. And when Jeff called me, I remember specifically I want to say he called me around two, three o'clock because I remember thinking, why is he calling me so late? You know, after I found out she was actually missing when I after I spoke to the girls, you know, Dawn. Uh I remember thinking, why is he calling me so like so many hours later after she she was supposed to be home at 11 o'clock at night because Jeff was the type that he he if she was if she's if she was at my house and she said, Oh, I'm gonna be home at nine o'clock I mean we had little babies, we weren't out, we never we didn't go out, we did girl you know, we got together, had cups of coffee, you know, maybe went to one of those home parties. But if if Jeff if she told Jeff I was gonna be home at nine o'clock from Karina's house, he would be calling my house if she wasn't home. Why was it why that's the only question I have is why did he wait so long to call me? He knew me well enough to to call me. I don't know what his relationship with the other girls were at the time. But I was at his house a lot, especially the house in Koksaki. You know, why why wouldn't he have called me at 10 o'clock in the morning? That's the only thing that kept g running through my head at that time.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

So it's 11 p.m. on Thursday night, but he doesn't call you until like two or three in the afternoon on Friday. On Friday, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

I mean that doesn't mean anything, but to me it's kind of weird. That that's weird to me. If if if my husband went missing, you know, I mean, I would have been calling people at six o'clock, I would have been calling people at twelve o'clock. You know, my husband did stuff like that. You know, I mean, not not for 24 hours, you know, he would just go out after work and I wouldn't be able to get a hold of him. But you know, still if if this was if I was Jeff and Audrey didn't come home at 11 o'clock, I would be calling people by 12, 1 o'clock in the morning. And I understand, yeah, it's in the morning, but you know what, that's kind of an emergency.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yes, we were discussing this the other day. I at one point in my life, I had my full-time job. I was teaching, and then I would go teach um for a university that was a good hour away from the house, and that was a nighttime class. So I think you kind of figured I'd be home around 11 p.m. And I I will guarantee you that if I was not rolling around or by 11.15 at the latest, probably, and of course we have cell phones, you're like, are you okay? You would call me or you would start calling around. And so you this does seem to be sort of something that kind of makes your red flags go off, but you've also described it as a change in behavior because you're indicating that typically, you know, she's supposed to be home at a certain time or he's expecting her home at a certain time. It takes the X amount of minutes to get from your house to their house. Why wasn't that same pattern of behavior followed in this case? Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

That was that was the only thing that at that time that I would question in my head, like I don't understand. And and then you hear things like, you know, I don't know what's true and what's not true. I had little babies at home. So you spoke to Marie already. I don't even know what she told you because she didn't tell me what your her conversation with you was, but you know, she was more involved with this than I was at at that time when it first happened. And I so I wasn't questioning Jeff. You know what I mean? Like I just figured, you know, the the the the police would take care of it, and but after after a while, you know, days are going by and then weeks, and and then that's when it really started hitting me, like why, you know, why didn't he call me? Why or anybody else, but me in particular, because I had a little bit more of a relationship with him, you know, where maybe Dawn didn't. I don't know what Marie's relationship with Jeff was. I know Dawn said that Jeff didn't care for her, you know, but you know, I I just had a different relationship with Jeff because I was there all the time with my kids or with Mariah, you know. But I didn't get a chance, so I wasn't at that, you know, I didn't get involved like Marie did as far as finding things out and talking to Jeannie and Ray, which is Audrey's father and stepmother, and talking to Jeff, you know, going to the house when the police were there. And so I don't know what's real and what's I'm not saying what anybody says isn't real. It's just that when someone tells you something like if someone said, you know, she left her purse, because that's what you hear too over the years, that she left her purse there, was that real? Did she really leave her purse there? Or did someone just say say that and you you know what I'm saying? But as far as Jeff and not calling, and I don't know if he called, I don't know. I don't know if he called the state troopers. Then I heard Jeannie called the state troopers. So it it it is kind of weird for me because of the things that I've heard, but I personally never spoke to Jeff about any of this, so I don't know what's absolutely 100% true and what's not. Um I know he didn't call me though. That I know a hundred percent. He did not call me until the next day. She had been already missing 15, 16 hours.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, you describe something that that we talk a lot with as we're speaking to those people who are close to victims of unsolved crimes. And the reason um what we try to do to sort of tease that out is we always request records from the local law enforcement because that you would hope is going to be evidence, right? These are who called it in first. It should say that, it should be in that very first report. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Did the trooper see her her uh you know, you hear that there was a purse left or a a cigarette case? I don't know. Even remember now, but who saw that? Was it a police officer? I don't know. But you know, Marie, like I said, Marie got really involved with all of this, and she's the one where I got a lot of the information from. So I don't I don't know unless I see something or someone tells me a hundred percent of any anything in life, not just this, but I I don't I can't believe everything you can't believe everything you hear. You know, so but I know for certain Jeff did not call me in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yes. And one of the things that is very important to us when we can't get the information that we're hoping to get from law enforcement, which sometimes is the case.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

It's not incredibly uncommon.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Right. Is we sort of do, it's not really an official triangulation of information, but we really do not talk about things publicly that are not firmly established unless we hear a similar thing from several people. And then we'll be like, oh, okay, maybe this is something that is a piece of the puzzle. But even better if we can actually get the records from law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

So Yeah, and one of the things we like to be careful with is too we don't like to, you know, we're not we're not trying to convict anyone on the podcast of that whether they were involved in something or not. But what we will say is Jeff's name keeps coming up, and it's coming up a lot from the perspective of his behavior change, his involvement in the searches, and evidently his lack of communication for the year, for the the years have gone by.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

So me knowing Jeff the way I did, I I can't say I knew him great, but I knew him, you know, I mean, I was around him. You he there there'd be no no way in my mind I would ever think that he would have hurt her. But knowing people, okay, you know, just being the age that I am and being living life, you you come to find out that people that you care about are the ones that end up hurting you. So can I see Jeff I I don't I don't know what a reason would be for him to hurt her. He wasn't that t type of person, you know, but the only thing in my mind I remember back then thinking was they got into some kind of fight, some kind of argument. I could see her hitting him like I said, she was feisty. I could see her, I don't know, I don't even know what they would fight about, but who knows? You know, you there's things you don't know. I mean, there's there's things I don't know about my friends behind their closed doors with their husbands, you know, and same same thing, you know, with me, people with my ex-husband, people that didn't know me had no idea the things that I went through with my ex-husband. But that being said, is things happen, you know, I had an incident in my life with my ex-husband that was physical. And it was something that was could have been tragic, but I mean it wasn't, but it it could have turned out very badly. With that being said, with Jeff, that's the only thing that comes to my mind is that they got into some kind of uh argument, fight. I I he he went to grab her or something, or and she fell. I don't know. That's that's the only thing that comes to my mind, like that plays in my head. Like when I see something in like a vision of something happening, if he did something. But other than that, I don't think they had a physical she never said anything about them him being physical with her. She might not, she might not have. She might not, you don't, you know, you sometimes you don't tell your closest friends things. So I don't know. I just can't see him hurting her. And that's why this I understand I I know what I'm telling you about him. So in my mind, it's crazy because I can't see that, but when we talk about him not calling anybody that night, that blows my mind because that's not a trait. He would have he would have why wasn't he calling people because of the way he was? I know he would have been calling people. Why did he wait?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Are there any theories that have been talked about or that you know of that didn't involve Jeff?

SPEAKER_02 27:01

That didn't involve him?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

That didn't involve him.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Uh the Rockton mob. Sure you heard about that.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

I have. Uh I'm struggling with that one, but we're still doing some more reading about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Which I'm not really sure. So I had somebody recently, within the last couple years, who was close, whose family was cl I'm not gonna say any names, but whose family was close with Jeff. And this person and I, her and I have never talked about this before. And and she told me that because I never heard of, you know, I know that there was they they say it was secret, or what do they call it? The um, like Ron, Jeff's father, Ron had uh, what do they call it when it's a private uh person a private um You're talking about silent partner? Silent partner. I I knew nothing really about the golf course and and and with Jeff's family. I don't ever remember Audrey talking about that. Maybe she did, but I don't remember that. Um but this person recently within the last couple of years and I had a conversation and she told me that there was a birthday party at Jeff and Audrey's, and it was not too it was before her, it was right before her disappearance. There was a birthday party, and this person's brother, who was close with Jeff, was there and I can't remember. She said, I think she said there was a phone call or either a phone call from Jeff's father, or he came to the house and told Jeff, you know, tell told Jeff we we have we have a problem to get your gun. And this person really doesn't know much more than that.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

So was that reported to the police?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

I don't know. I don't know. Well that's very interesting. That is that tells me that that was I'm just assuming that was something with the r the the Russian people. I'm not I don't you know, the Russian mob, maybe they weren't a mob, maybe there's just I don't know, you know? I have no clue.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

And then you talked a little bit earlier about the possibility of her just going off the road for some reason.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Maybe I I was about to say looking at her phone, but that wasn't a thing. It sounds like maybe she did have some kind of phone, but not a phone in the way that we use phones.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

The bag phone? I don't even remember what that is, like the bag phone that you had in your car. The big bag phone that back in that day.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Unfortunately, I remember having one.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

I didn't have one. I don't recall that either, but maybe. Um, and then I know this is not something that someone really ever suspects, particularly I can tell in this case is sometimes people think say they just like pieced out, but everyone has talked just very drilled into us the way that Audrey felt about her children. And that she would not just choose.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

I can't ever imagine. I mean, I can't ever imagine that ever. No way. You know, Jeff kind of had, you know, there was things I don't remember, I think it was afterwards I I heard of an incident. You know, he he when it came to Katie and Quinn, I think he kind of made the rules. You know, those were his kids. And I don't know, maybe there was some silent partner Russian that they things weren't good, and maybe that's why he was that way with his kids. I mean, he wasn't with Sancia. She used to come to my I mean, I have pictures. I'm trying to think of whose birthday party. It must have been my daughter Alex's first birthday party. So Alex would have been two the year that Audrey went missing. But um, I had two, my two youngest daughters are 11 months apart. One was born in April, and the other one was the younger one was born in March. So they're 11 months apart. And I have pictures of I had like my in-laws and everybody at my house, and Audrey and and Sancia were there, but the two little kids weren't there. Maybe it was just easier not to bring them because you know they were little. Quinn and Alex are my daughter Alex, my middle daughter are the same age. They went to school together. But yeah, so and then there was another incident that we used to have um at school. We used to have or the elementary school for the kids. There used to be like, I forget what they call it, uh foreign, uh, like a foreign exchange day or something like that. It was you dressed, everybody had a different country. Yeah, like culture day. They called it culture day if you address something. It that's not what they called it, but they yeah. So they dressed up, everyone had a different country, and like, you know, you would have a table set up in the cafeteria, and you would, you know, dressed in that country's, you know, uh an outfit, and then you would make the food. And I remember Marie, I think, telling me something happened, and he wouldn't let the two little ones go. I can't remember what country it was either. But I don't know, it was just weird things like that. He he wouldn't allow her to take them.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

What do you remember um about law enforcement's efforts, not necessarily that first day, but kind of moving forward?

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Um, I guess they used ATVs. I don't remember if they used helicopters or not. I mean, I I don't know how thorough they were, uh, you know, investigating, you know, Jeff and the family and the house. And, you know, after a while, after after not finding her, you know, weeks are going by. And of course we're gonna say, what are they doing? Why can't they find her? But I don't, I honestly don't know what their efforts were. I can't say that offhand.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

I have no clue. And we know that um Audrey's disappearance has gotten quite a bit of media coverage, and we're happy to be able to contribute to that. Um, tell us a little bit about that. I know there were some pretty high-profile shows that her story was covered on.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Uh Marie and I, Audrey's father and stepmother Jeannie, went to Montel Williams. That was, I believe, about 10 months after her disappearance. Um I believe we found out when we were there that they had reached the producers told us that they had reached out to Jeff when she first disappeared, and he declined. And I think it might have well, we had Sylvia Brown was on that episode that we were that we went to, that we were invited to go to. So we just couldn't understand why he would have declined. We one of the first things that I do remember when we went, I don't know which day it was, if it was a couple days after, but we were all I was questioned by the state police, um, and we all went to the barracks, and I remember saying, I don't know if it was just to Marie, but I remember saying, Why does why doesn't someone have a reward? Like at this time, we don't know really what happened. So we're just, you know, my first instincts or you know, first thought was, why, why doesn't, you know, if Jeff's family has money, why isn't someone putting a reward out? So we started doing things to raise money to try to put a reward out. And one of the things that we did was we got Hoffman, uh, Hoffman Car Wash is a chain car wash around here. And we um got a hold of them and they had tickets made, and we literally went door to door selling these tickets. Um, and then after that we had like the bike runs, but I believe Jeff did contribute a thousand dollars towards the reward fund.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

And this isn't like a small like par three golf course we're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:19

No, nope, it's an it's an 18 course, and I actually I just started golfing three years ago, and um good friends of mine bought it, and um, so I started golfing there. So it's it's it's very big. I don't want to add my friend who bought that had told me that a lot of their you know customers that that golf there, they they talk about Jeff's family being the ones that caused Audrey's disappearance. They don't say how or, you know, but they that's what they believe.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Do they give any at least context to that accusation?

SPEAKER_02 37:02

No. No, they just I don't know. I mean, she my friend just told me that a lot of people but you know, you that doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

It's just people talking. It's the 19th whole talk. That's right. You finish up and you go to I play a little golf. Yeah. You go to the 19th, but you know, I think it's a good thing to these are the kinds of things that maybe it feels like maybe it's nothing, but maybe it is something, right? It's that kind of conversation. And that's why part of why we do these conversations too, because sometimes things come up um has been lost for a while, or you see something in a new light, or you have a vision or a dream about something, um, and you need to talk it out, right? Um I think that's real fascinating. There must be a lot of golf courses up in that area. We have another story that we have covered, um, someone missing out of uh West Palm Beach. But there is someone who is a part of that story who owns a golf course outside of I think it's Saratoga Springs up in that area. Okay. I'm up I'm up this that area now. They must be making good money in the summer because I would imagine there's not much golfing going on in the winter. Yeah, no. No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

At least if there is, it doesn't sound like any fun.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

No. Yeah. Um, so as we kind of conclude and get towards close, are there things that you've thought about that you would like to share that we did not give you an opportunity to speak about? Um not that I can think of.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Yeah, I don't I don't r I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

All right. So I guess we can kind of start. We'll get to our kind of our last question. I always like to kind of close on these with, you know, if there's someone you want to reach out to or someone you want to talk to now, what would you what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 38:56

You know, either to Jeff or to with Jeff, I was I I guess I was always I don't know why I was always so hesitant to ask him because I always I always wanted to know. One of the things I definitely want to know is why he why he didn't call us early in the morning. If you didn't he didn't call us during the night, why didn't he call six, seven o'clock in the morning? Why was it so late? You know, I do have something I want to add, actually. I have a good friend of mine whose sister was involved with with Jeff. I can't remember how many years ago. And less than less than 10 years, I I would think, I spoke to her. And she said that definitely 100% he had nothing to do with this. That he still had pictures up, he had things in the house still of hers up. I I I wish I could tell you how many years ago this was. I'm trying to think. I I remember exactly where I was when I was talking to her. I was at the mall sitting in my car waiting to go in. I had to go shopping for something, but I don't remember how I ended up calling her. Um it had to have been the last ten years. And um she's convinced that he had nothing to do to do with with her disappearance. Sorry, you just said something and that's reminded me that it's a perfect example.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

That's that's a perfect example of why we ask questions the way we do.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Yeah. But but as of right now, I definitely want to know why he waited so long. Like why I'm not saying that that would have made a difference, but knowing Jeff the way I knew him, why did why did he wait? And you know, I want to know I would like I would want to know, was there do they think that like his family, do they think that this was an outsider, you know, someone like the Russian mob or whatever you want to call them? Does he really think that they had you know, if it wasn't him, if it wasn't his father, was it this outside these outside people that were involved with with the property? I I don't know that I would get an answer, but that's definitely something that I I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

And then lastly, can you talk a little bit about the impact that Audrey's disappearance has had on you even this this many years later?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

So when everything first happened and weeks and months were going by, and we were doing whatever we could, you know, to think of things, to raise money, to get a reward, to keep her name out, you know, to get her name out there, because this was something that people, you know, maybe an hour away, people never heard of Audrey, you know, where you got you have Lacey Peterson, who was from California, we knew about her. So we were doing whatever we could. I mean, we even had jugs at local stores that had her picture and a reward, and people were putting money in there, and that's what we were doing. We were always doing something, always on our computers. I remember being in my um, I had a, you know, a home, I had a um semi-finished basement, and that's that's where my office was, where my computer was. And I had little kids, and my mind was so focused, I I just I just think about how I neglected my family back then. It's it's all you could think about. You really couldn't think about anything else. We just wanted to find her. We were trying different avenues. We, you know, we we got involved with a lot of people, with missing loved ones. And um, I want to say it's it took a it took a big toll on on me taking away from my family. You know, I was home, I was doing things, but I just remember like my mind was just not focused on the things that it should have been focused on. It was focused on finding her. And and as the years went by. I you know now it's it's 20 something years later, 23 years later, and you still think about her. I I have I have an angel out on my it's I bring it out at Christmas time. What's weird is Soncia and my daughter Mariah went to Girl Scouts and uh it would have been our last the Girl Scouts had a big Christmas party with the um at a at a restaurant and everybody brought a gift, the mothers brought a gift for each other, and the girls bought bought a gift for each other, and then they Santa would hand them out. You didn't know who the gift was from. There was so you know, it's a lot of it's a it was a lot of people, it was all the troops together, right? And I ended up getting this angel from it was in a box, a porcelain angel, her wings open up, and she's holding a dove. I I Audrey and I, you know, we were I don't know if we were sitting together at that table, but I opened it up and she's like, That that was my gift. She goes, That's the gift I gave. And ironically, I got her gift. And that would have been um Christmas of twenty one. You know, that's something that I keep you know, I I I put out at Christmas time, and it just it just makes me feel closer to her. I I know that sounds crazy, but but being now that it's so many years later and you know, life goes on and y we think about her a lot, and people like you were grateful for that reach out because this is not something that goes away. I'm sorry. This is not something that goes away. And it's it's I just don't want us taking this to the grave. We I pray I mean there's times where I see people and I I and you know, you look, you might be driving and you're and you look and you're like, oh my god, that looks like Audrey, you know, and and you you think like is she still out there? I don't I don't I don't want her to be still out there if she's being tortured somewhere, you know. But this is just something that I can't even believe that we're still going through this after 23 years. Her poor mother, you know, her poor mother is now very sick and paralyzed. I believe she's still paralyzed, and you know, she's you know, you can't imagine what she went through. I can't imagine one of my children ever being missing, you know. Soncia, I mean, she's she's a grown woman now. I wonder if she even how much she remembers of her mother, you know, Katie and Quinn, they don't remember her. We go through life every day because we have to, but this is not something that ever goes away. It's never gonna go away. And when we start talking about things, when people come up, you know, something comes up usually around the time of her disappearance, where people start talking on the internet. And Marie is really good at making sure the police know everything. If someone says, you know, oh, this happened, or someone says something, Marie makes sure that they probably can't stand her, but that but she makes sure that she uh lets the investigator know about whatever, you know, if someone's saying, even if it's something so small, you know, she makes sure that that they know about it. But yeah, this is never this is something that will never ever go away.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Our purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family, and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode resonated with you, we encourage you to subscribe, leave a review, and share the podcast so these important stories continue to be heard. Together, we can preserve their memories and ensure their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for cases we should cover or questions about what you heard, you can connect with us through our Facebook group, Tragedy a True Crime Podcast, on X at Tragedy Podcast, by email at Tragedy at True Crime Podcast at gmail.com, or by visiting our website www.tragedy at True Crime Podcast.com. Thank you for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.