SPEAKER_01 0:00

In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is a place where every story matters and every voice deserves to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe at www.tragedy, a true crime podcast.com for early access to new episodes. And join our Facebook community, Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast, for updates, discussions, and ways to support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy, a True Crime Podcast. I'm Elisa.

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And I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

And today's episode is sponsored by Walcala Giving Hands. Walcala Giving Hands is a nonprofit organization that opened its doors in November 2023. Since then, it has proudly served more than 450,000 individuals across Florida, providing essential resources and support to those in need. The organization operates several impactful programs, including Cares for the Children, Hands for the Seniors, Homeless Outreach, Food Distribution, and Keep Warm and Cool. Every dollar donated stays within the nonprofit, no one is paid, including board members, ensuring that all contributions directly benefit the community. You can help by volunteering your time and skills, donating items, or making a monetary contribution. You can also encourage your company to donate extra products instead of throwing them away. Become a business or organizational sponsor or partner. Join as an individual sponsor with monthly or yearly support. Visit the Walcala Giving Hands website, waacullagivinghands.org, to learn more, volunteer, or donate. Together, we can continue making a difference in the lives of those who need it most.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

We're going to talk about the updates with Ian Rogers, and we're going to talk about what we've learned from the Jonathan Haigins case associated with this really large FOIA that we got.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yes. And so let's start with Ian Rogers' case. And so we know that the truck was found. That was the last thing that we really talked about. We had just found out about it late last week. And now we're going to talk about the search that happened last week. So let's just start with what we know to be the location. And of course, it's not precise. We can only go on what we have read from some of the local media. And so we know and we believe that this truck was found very close to what we've talked about a lot: this cell phone ping. We believe that the truck was found off Old Plank Road between Tram Road and Natural Bridge Road. We have the GPS coordinates of the cell phone ping, and seems like it's pretty close to that area.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Is the Walcala Kennedy Sheriff's Office say anything about the fact that these two things are so close together and why this wouldn't have been discovered sooner? I mean, I know we found no record of an actual search that occurred around the cell phone ping, at least nothing official. We talked about in the earlier episode about Britain's search, and we know that that kind of got cut short or it was focused on water primarily, and there was just there was no outcome of that, and it was on private property. So now we know it's around the cell phone ping. I don't know if we know exactly where yet, but in reality, it's close. We're describing all the same areas. Um, is there any indication from Waucala County why this area wasn't searched before?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I think these are really great questions. If I go back to when we spoke with Teresa a few times, I don't recall her telling us anything specific around Waucala County Sheriff's Office going out and doing any searches. Of course, we know that Britain went out, and I believe Teresa even commented and told us that people close to her went out and did some searches. Um, but I don't recall or see anything specific about Walcala County Sheriff's Office doing any searches at the time the cell phone ping was discovered. Something interesting about this location is it's actually in Leon County. So when the truck was found, it was originally uh Leon County Sheriff's Office. Of course, the truck was reported stolen, uh Tallahassee. Now, let's remember Ian didn't steal the truck. That is one thing that unfortunately has happened. There was a law enforcement officer in Leon County who went on record saying Ian stole the truck. Um it was reported stolen because he was missing. And it was an effort to try to make sure that in the event that the truck, the VIN what did pop up somewhere, then it was reported stolen. And then that would be a way to find Ian if that were happened. If that had happened, he did not steal the truck. So this is something that's come up and has been a big point of contention in our Facebook group and things, and people who know this case know that that's not exactly what happened. Um we can tell by reading the news reports that it was, quote, way down off tram road and that the truck was stuck in the mud. We did see, and a lot of our Facebook uh group members also saw some of the pictures that were posted of the truck once it was taken out of this place where it was likely had been for quite a while. Um, and the back bumper, some people said, Oh, the back bumper looks bad. That we believe is because it took some effort to get this truck out of this culvert that it was stuck in. And so the bumper was damaged when the truck was removed from that area.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, we don't, we're not assuming that though. That was confirmed.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yes. Um, and in the pictures, it does also look like maybe the windows are broken out, but that's not it. There's some plastic that was put um over the windows. So these are kinds of things that people, when they're first looking at the picture, also I want to clarify there are people who are saying, um, wow, that truck couldn't have been in there that long because it looks really good. We have to be really careful because some of the pictures that the media has been um putting on Facebook and on their pages are the pictures of the truck when he picked it up. They're the pictures that law enforcement was using um to put the word out that he was missing. And so you just please be careful as you're looking at that information.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, I think um, if I remember correctly, Elisa, um when I saw a lot of those posts, it was really around WCTV's coverage and the picture they were using was before the truck went missing. So yeah, of course the truck looked new because it kind of was.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yes, there is also um an um something that I do want to clarify. I can't remember which local news reporter it was, but the in the report it was stated that the truck was brand new, and that's obviously not accurate. We we know that. He received the truck in 2024, but it was a 2019 pickup truck, so it was not um brand new. So let's talk about what we can tell on the news reports what was and wasn't found in the truck. Um, we did read in some reports it says, quote, there's no evidence of foul play. Whatever that means, that that is what the news is reporting from law enforcement, and that the phone was not found. So a lot of people are like, where's the phone? So I understand that the phone was not recovered during the search. Um keys, I don't think I've heard anything about keys being recovered during the search. And let's just talk about that search a little bit. So once the truck was found, it did take, I want to say it was a little over a week for all of everyone who was involved in that search to kind of get together. And they spent one day, it was a combined effort, Leon County Sheriffs, Wilcola County Sheriffs, um, some other local organizations. There were some canines out there, and they spent what looks to be about one day um searching 3,280 feet in each direction from the truck. Uh, but they did not find, to our knowledge, they did not find Ian. We haven't heard anything about any body being recovered or any remains. We we know just the truck on and some things that were in the truck, but no phone, no keys. The bed of the truck, um, we have seen a lot of those pictures with the ladders, looks the same.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, there doesn't look like there's anything missing from the truck at all.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Now I did find another article from WCTV that says the search covered about 70 acres. And this was according to the North Florida search team, who was part of the efforts with L FDLE and the other organizations that I had already named.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

So uh That seems like a significant discrepancy of what was covered. Sounds like they're not talking to each other.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

It sure would be nice because I know one article said 1,000 yards, another one said 3,280 feet, which three feet in a yard, that that part made sense. It's this 70 acres. But I wonder about drones, maybe when they're talking about the 3,280 that's on foot and this 70 acres.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, they're not being specific here.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

It sure would be nice to have some specificity there for the family. Um, we do know that they have identified some additional areas that they do want to search, um, and they've got a new grid and they're putting together a new search operation. But from what we have heard, it will require getting permission from someone else because the truck was found on private property. And it seems like it's going to be at least a week until another search is launched.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, I think it's pretty disappointing that it's another week. I get that it's getting into Thanksgiving holiday and everything, but I'm kind of curious how um I hope they enjoy their Thanksgiving, let's put it that way, because I know Teresa's not going to enjoy hers.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

And it's really interesting that you bring that up because we can see by reading all of the comments and everything's on the WCTV page and on the WTXL who are covering both the cases, the community is is really um not satisfied.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

There are so many-less just say what it is. They're pissed.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah, there are so many comments um on their Facebook pages about um this is so close to the ping. Why didn't they do this? What is taking so long? How come there's so so long between when the truck was found to win the search? What only one day for the search, what is going on? And so we we are really hoping that our the local reporters continue covering this story, but maybe take it from a different angle and let's find out what's going on. Like why weren't these searches done when they had this cell phone ping? Because it looks like that truck was, I would say, under five miles, maybe even closer from that cell phone ping. And they've had that to our knowledge since November. And finally, let's talk about um an associate.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, we had an associate go to the area, um, associate of the tragedy podcast go to the area and kind of check out where they were doing the search, what did it look like, um, what was, you know, any indication of how, you know, what area being searched and how it was being searched. And they found a couple of interesting things.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Aaron Powell Yes, and this was quite easy to find. All you had to do was watch the video footage and know that you just needed to go on Old Plank Road just south of Tram. And there's a clear cut that looks like it's relatively new. And that's how our associate found this area. And now there is a quite a large tree, a very large tree, what, 10, 12 feet long, going across that clear-cut area, probably designed to keep anybody else from going in there because we do believe they're going to continue the search. We also know that if you start from where that clear-cut area is, there really looks to be only kind of one way that you can head east off of Old Plank Road, and that's on Plank Grade. So our associate drove down Plank grade and noticed to the left or the north, several two roads that were blocked off by signs, brand new, looked like brand new signs that said no motorized vehicle. And as this person continued down Plank Grade Road, it seems pretty obvious where the truck was pulled out. The um it's very disturbed. There's, you know, you can see that something was pulled out of there, and that's on another one of those two roads that now has a sign that says no motorized vehicles. And finally, we do want to send a note of gratitude. We've been in close contact with Teresa as always, and she's just so grateful for all of the comments that are happening and the questions that people are bringing to the sheriff's office and the concern that's happening in the community. And you'll see her um every once in a while in the Facebook group. She is commenting, but she just always wants me to make sure that our listeners know that you know she knows you are there for her, and she's just really grateful for all the support the community has given her. All right, now let's talk about Jonathan Higgins. All right. We received quite a large packet of information from Jacksonville Beach PD in a pretty quick turnaround, which was really nice. We have 137 pages of documents um related to his disappearance. Now, part of the reason why we requested this information is because we know we'll remind our listeners he went missing in 1968, right? And so we've spoken to a couple of people who've come on the podcast, and you know, that's a long, that's a really long time to remember something, particularly when we have people who were young at the time. And so the hope was that at least my hope was that in this FOIA we would have some of the original um interviews that were that happened, right? Because they were interviewing people right away that day. And so we were hoping that that's what would be in this FOIA, um, so that we could help with some consistency in the stories that we are hearing and reading. And unfortunately, that's not what happened.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yeah, you you mentioned to move for that most of the documents that we have are from like 2015 and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

And there's really only one document that we have that looks or appears to have been created during the time period right when Jonathan went missing.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yes, most of this packet that we received is 2015 moving forward because that's when the case was reopened. Uh, there is this one thing that I am going to read. I can tell that this is pretty old. It's typed. I I know maybe our younger listeners don't know what a typewriter is, but I can tell this is typing uh and it is scanned in. And then there are also a series of articles that are scanned in from like 1989. But as far as police records and interviews and things like that, this this is seems to be the oldest one. Um so I'm just gonna read it. Um, and it says victim, older brother, sister, and friends were on 16th Avenue South Ramp. All but older brother apparently wandered from area for a few minutes. Older brother stated the last time he saw John, he was walking up parentheses west the ramp. The tide was high against the rocks and up on end of ramp. End of ramp, also slick where water comes in and recedes. Had all bystanders to help look for the victims west of area, called lifeguards to search ocean. They were out in boats still looking at midnight. Parents were taken to hospital by friend, older sister and brother were taken home by friend. And so there's a lot of things in here that are consistent. This says 9:30 to 10 p.m. That's what everybody remembers. That's what we read in the news articles. Um there's also this consistency of Jonathan um wandering away from his siblings and heading um away from the water. The tide was high, and this is why they were playing on this ramp area. Um, and it seems pretty consistent. They all kind of remember him walking away from the water up kind of this boat ramp.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

And that's particularly interesting because one of the things that also talks about is it was it was, you know, said it was a drowning. But yet our eyewitness statement indicates that he's walking away from the water, not toward it.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yes, this that that is something that I can tell from this packet of information that we received that this case was closed and it was um recorded as as a drowning. And so when you talk about a lot of documents coming from 2015 forward in this information we received, that's when the case was reopened, and that's why most of the stuff is 2015 and moving forward. In 2015, Jacksonville Beach PD reopens this case. And one thing we know that's very different from 2015 to 1968 is DNA. And so what they do is they connect up with the family members and they spend a good deal of time over several years doing um connect collecting DNA from all the family members and then creating a full DNA profile and adding that profile to the National Missing Persons database. He's reactivated into NAMIS and to other of our nationwide organizations where those databases that house missing people. So that's really what's happening from 2015 until about 2020. And about 2020, then we see a lot of re-interviewing of family members. And so let me just kind of go through and we'll talk about who was re-interviewed. So in 2020, um, members from Jacksonville Beach PD, they traveled to Tallahassee and they meet with several members of the members of the family, um, and Paul Coley from Sent Evidence canine, and they're trying to kind of put this picture together again. And we have to remember that these are people trying to re recollect something from many, many, many years ago. And they first interviewed uh Jonathan's dad, and his name is also Joe. And he talks about how here's some more consistencies, right? We know that we had um we were going out to celebrate anniversary, so we had four adults and all these kids, and they'd gone to Nick's Pizza, very consistent, that's what we heard. Uh, then they all drove over to First Street um and 16th Avenue South, very consistent, that's what we've heard. So there is this really interesting interview that happens with Jonathan's dad, Joe, in 2020, and he talks about how they went um to the beach, and then the detective says, quote, I told Hagens that this was not consistent with the police reports from that date, end quote. And this is really why we wanted those police reports from that exact date. And that was probably one of the more discouraging things from this is of course, I mean, it's forever ago. How do we expect people to remember something from that many years ago that's that dramatic with that precision? And just that piece not being provided in this FOIA is is really frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Yeah, I can see that because you know we have where he's you know makes the comment of it's not consistent, but then we can't go back and see the original report to figure out what he's really referring to, and he never really calls it out here. He just says it's not consistent. However, there's another point in the FOIA that I thought was particularly interesting. When we first started this investigation, we talked to Joel. Joel talks about the snack shack, and we talk about the snack shack in pretty good detail, but we also get into this position where we're not able to find the snack shack. No one can find the snack shack, it's it's a big mystery of what the snack shack was. And so now we listen to Joe. You know, he sent us in that document the email that we read um on our previous episode about this case. He references a snack shack. But then when we transition over to Susan, there's no snack shack. We're talking about a bar now. And what's interesting is she's the only person that calls this out. And when you think about the ages, Joel wasn't born yet. Joe was f was five. Susan was fifteen. And so the person who's gonna, in my in my opinion, the person who's gonna have the best memory is Susan at this point. We even go to Paul, Paul references a snack shack and the but then says the same thing to us, has never been able to find the snack shack. So it got us wondering, whenever we got the foyer, the very first thing we started looking for was the snack shack versus this bar. And what's interesting is there's no references to a snack shack anywhere in how many pages?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

137.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

137 pages, no references to a snack shack, but they're three separate references to a bar. So it got us thinking, I wonder if everyone's been looking for a snack shack, and the snack shack's not really part of the story.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yes, what is in this document does align much stronger with what Susan said. Um when they interviewed Jonathan's dad, he said they got to this location and they went into a bar, leaving one of the four adults outside overlooking the beach and and the ramp to the beach, presumably watching the children. Um, and then he talks again about how um where he was either in the bar or outside of the bar. And then we see the bar again, of course, with Susan, right? What she spoke with us, what she emailed with us, and that we were able to read um when we did that story with Susan lines up exactly with what she. She's reporting in 2020 in the FOIA that they went to Nick's Pizza on the on the uh beach on Beach Boulevard, and that she and her mother and her aunt or her uncle went into the bar along with this friend and they felt uncomfortable in the bar, and so she and her friend left.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, the reason I believe that part of the story is because she's not just talking about where they are, but she had some kind of emotional response in the bar that made her feel that's what made her feel uncomfortable, and therefore she left. I mean, it's hard for me to deviate um away from her story being the truth or the most true, um, whenever she was able to provide so much detail around the bar and even what happened with her in the bar.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yes. And in this 2020 interview, um, she does say that she was interviewed by officers and gave a written statement either on the night of the incident or within the following days. And that's what the that's what we wanted to have.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

And we don't have it.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

No, we definitely don't have that. So there's one thing that really stood out in this, and it's an event that happened in the late 80s regarding someone who claimed to be Jonathan Hagins.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yeah, we we heard about this when we talked to Joel, and we did read through this. There's a lot of interesting details when it comes to how this person was investigated. But you know what? This guy's an asshole, and I can't believe that he put the family through this. So we're not going to give it any more attention. It doesn't appear to be related to Jonathan Hagin's disappearance, and I think this guy, you know, what he put the family through is just unforgivable.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

And as part of the renewed efforts to bring this case back up, because it was closed, they did a series of age-progressed images of Jonathan and put those on Namus and N C M E C and just put those age-progressed images um out into the media in case there's somebody out there who happens to, you know, see someone who looks like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

And what we'll do is do you well, do you have links for that?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yes, we do. They are in the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and you can find that at www.missingkids.com, and you will see Jonathan's photo is shown age progressed to 51 years of age. It also gives the phone number for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, as well as the phone number for Jacksonville Beach Police Department.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

All right, so how are we going to wrap up this episode? Um in reality, there's a lot going on with the Ian Rogers case. There's some things that we know that we can't talk about yet because of sourcing that, you know, we're staying on top of. And as soon as we're allowed to speak about these things publicly, we'll be, you know, you guys will be the first people to know. And beyond that, you know, we've got additional thing for the the Jonathan Haggins case. You know, we've talked to Paul. We're still waiting on Paul to give us some documents that he collected in his investigation. I know that's pending. And as soon as we have those, well, they're going to be here too.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Thank you for listening, and thank you for continuing to spread the word about our podcast. You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Our purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family, and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode resonated with you, we encourage you to subscribe, leave a review, and share the podcast so these important stories continue to be heard. Together, we can preserve their memories and ensure their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for cases we should cover or questions about what you heard, you can connect with us through our Facebook group, Tragedy a True Crime Podcast, on X at Tragedy Podcast, by email at TragedyAt True Crime Podcast at gmail.com, or by visiting our website www.tragedyatrucrimepodcast.com. Thank you for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.